Originally Posted By: talus
well yes Dan if they can't stand up for the Pledge how in the heck are they going stand up for the US as Nation????????????


I stand up for the US as a nation. I don't bother with the Pledge. I don't think we have liberty and justice for all, so I won't say it. But I continue to fight for it.

I don't care if people burn the flag. I care that we preserve the principles that this nation should stand for (free speech being among them).

I don't believe in symbolism; I believe in action. Real commitment shows up in deeds, not words. Plenty of people say they "support the troops," but just about no one has done anything to support them, which ought to be a national embarrassment.

Talk is a poor substitute for substance. There are plenty of people who say the pledge and have run this country into the ground, and plenty of people who don't say it and care deeply about the principles that make this nation worth preserving.

 Originally Posted By: talus
"Again, I think it's a fact that McCain's budget numbers are more fiscally irresponsible than Obama's"

there you are; I think McCain's are less. blah blah blah


You can think what you want, but it won't change the facts. If you want to learn about what the candidates' budget plans entail, you could look at a report from a nonpartisan organization such as the Tax Policy Center. The Center says Obama's proposals would increase the debt by $3.5 trillion by 2018, while McCain's would increase it by $5 trillion. As Senator Moynihan once said, everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts. Still vote for McCain if you want to, but let's not pretend that his budget proposals aren't full of red ink.

 Originally Posted By: talus
Are these the same historians that still believe that the civil was about freeing slaves???


No, I believe they're well-respected people who know better. Even I know from high school that emancipation became more important only some time after the Civil War had already begun, so I assume most historians know it too.

Lincoln was far from perfect. He did suspend habeas corpus, which most now look back on as a bad decision. But without him, there's a good chance this country would look very different today. Why not read a Lincoln biography, see how he handled trying to hold the nation together in a time of crisis, and get back to me?

You can check out this summary of academic presidential polls. Even a Wall Street Journal poll which attempted to balance for liberal/conservative ideology had Lincoln in the #2 slot. Every poll has Lincoln in the top three. Not bad for someone who lacked "experience." He had good judgment, and that's what matters.