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#11948 - 05/22/04 11:25 PM 'Gunks route trivia
Dana Offline
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Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
1. What were the only routes given the grade of 5.10 inn the 1964 'Gunks guide?

2. In the climbing history of the 'Gunks, only 2 routes have been given an A4 rating. Which ones?

3. There are 2 bolts in the Near Trapps, where are they?

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#11949 - 05/23/04 02:31 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
Dizzy Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
Quote:

1. What were the only routes given the grade of 5.10 inn the 1964 'Gunks guide?




Matinee, Retribution

Quote:

2. In the climbing history of the 'Gunks, only 2 routes have been given an A4 rating. Which ones?




To Have or Have Not, Kligfield Follies

Quote:

3. There are 2 bolts in the Near Trapps, where are they?



I'm assuming you don't mean the new bolt stations installed for our convenience. Protection bolts are:Nazgul, Fat City

Now going,
Dizz
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#11950 - 05/23/04 03:09 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dizzy]
Dana Offline
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Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
I forgot about Kliegfield's. There were actually 3 routes that had an A4 rating

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#11951 - 05/23/04 03:22 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
Dizzy Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
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Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
Quote:

I forgot about Kliegfield's. There were actually 3 routes that had an A4 rating




So, how'd I do on the other ?????

Now going,
Dizz
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I can handle reality in small doses, but as a lifestyle it's way too confining
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#11952 - 05/23/04 08:13 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5977
Loc: 212 land
1. What were the only routes given the grade of 5.10 inn the 1964 'Gunks guide?

Add Never Never Land and Nosedive to Dizzy's Matinee and Retribution.
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#11953 - 05/23/04 11:53 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dizzy]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

Quote:

2. In the climbing history of the 'Gunks, only 2 routes have been given an A4 rating. Which ones?




To Have or Have Not, Kligfield Follies





Twilight Zone had an A4 rating in the Gran guide. More recently, The Best Things In Life Aren't Free, to the right of the Twilight Zone aid crack.

Quote:

[
Quote:

3. There are 2 bolts in the Near Trapps, where are they?



I'm assuming you don't mean the new bolt stations installed for our convenience. Protection bolts are:Nazgul, Fat City




Fat City? It has a notorious pin, but I don't think there's a bolt on it. OTOH, there is the bolt on Honky Tonk Woman.
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#11954 - 05/24/04 01:55 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: MarcC]
Dana Offline
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Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Pretty embarassing when you fuck up your own trivia question. Anyway, the final route i know of to be rated A4 was New Frontier, 5.6 A4, freed of course, by John Stannard. When I did Fat City, there was a ridiculous rusted out 1/4 incher slightly right of the belay stance after the crux. Looks like the bolt on Phoebe.

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#11955 - 05/25/04 01:19 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
stimpy Offline
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Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 243
1. What member of a Gunks first ascent party went on to climb the Sears Tower in a Spiderman outfit, and what was the climb?

2. Who was the Gunks first ascensionist that aid climbed one of the World Trade Center Towers, which tower was it, and what climb was his FA?


Edited by stimpy (05/25/04 01:30 AM)
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#11956 - 05/25/04 01:35 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: oenophore]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
Quote:

1. What were the only routes given the grade of 5.10 inn the 1964 'Gunks guide?

Add Never Never Land and Nosedive to Dizzy's Matinee and Retribution.




No, those were 5.9 until the recent (last 10years) upgradings.

Now going ,
Dizz
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#11957 - 05/25/04 01:45 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: stimpy]
yorick Offline
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
2. George Willig, South Tower, Shitty Mitty...
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#11958 - 05/25/04 04:49 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dizzy]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

Quote:

1. What were the only routes given the grade of 5.10 inn the 1964 'Gunks guide?

Add Never Never Land and Nosedive to Dizzy's Matinee and Retribution.




No, those were 5.9 until the recent (last 10years) upgradings.



Um, sorry Dizz, I have a copy of the 64 Gran guide sitting next to me on the desk. Both Nosedive (pg. 63) and Never Never Land (pg. 110) were graded 5.10. What you're remembering was the downgrading to 5.9 in the 72 Williams guide. In the 1980 red Dick, Nosedive was still 5.9 but NNL was back up to 5.10.
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#11959 - 05/25/04 12:04 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: MarcC]
Dana Offline
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Posts: 619
Marc is right. What is also mildly interesting is that at various times, Never Never Land has been rated 5.10, 5.9, 5.9+ and 5.10-.

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#11960 - 05/26/04 01:36 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
phlan Offline

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Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
those various times for all those different grades could occur in one given day, depending on the humidity level...
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#11961 - 05/26/04 03:34 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
Steven Cherry Offline

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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1300
Loc: New York, N.Y.
5.9,5.9+, 5.10? That's still just one grade. What about The Dangler? 5.8, 5.9, 5.10

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#11962 - 05/27/04 07:33 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Steven Cherry]
daryl512 Offline

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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
What about The Dangler? 5.8, 5.9, 5.10

Please don't get Ranger Rob and I started on THAT one again OK fine, too late.........I say no harder than 8+

Daryl
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At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#11963 - 05/28/04 02:37 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: daryl512]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I will not hijack this post to retort.

RR

10a

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#11964 - 05/28/04 03:19 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: RangerRob]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

I will not hijack this post to retort.

RR

10a




no way if stannard roof is 10a then dangler is 5.8. it's only 3 moves

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#11965 - 06/04/04 01:06 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the Black Dick guide for the trapps: The topos in the back what climbs do you see people on?

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#11966 - 06/05/04 12:38 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia
daryl512 Offline

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Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
Dirty Girdie
Laurel
Ape Call

From the 1980 Williams Guide


Daryl
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At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512

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#11967 - 06/07/04 12:45 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: daryl512]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

Dirty Girdie
Laurel
Ape Call

From the 1980 Williams Guide


Daryl




didn't see laurel. there is also 1 more

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#11968 - 06/08/04 03:12 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are a number of factual errors in the answers to these trivia questions. Here are some of them:

(1) The 5.10 routes in the original 1964 Art Gran guidebook were: Matinee, Retribution, NeverNeverLand and Nosedive. The latter two were always rated 5.10 in this guidebook and were downgraded in subsequent guidebooks only.

(2) Regarding the A4 ratings. There were two routes in the 1964 guidbook--New Frontier and Twighlight Zone. Later on, a number of first ascents were done that had short A4 sections, according to the opinions of the first ascent teams. One of these was "The Best Things in Life Aren't Free". The first ascent of Kligfield's Follies by myself and Robert Krumme was originally rated A3, for the second roof pitch, not the first pitch where the free climbing crux is now. It was never rated A4. However, in the late 60s, Dave Ingalls and I led a direct start to Yellow Wall that is now the first pitch of Scary Area. At the time this was rated by us A4 because of hook moves and rurps used and the death fall potential. The bolt that now protects the free climbing was of course not placed by us on the first ascent but was placed later during the free climbing attempts.

(3) Bolts. The trivia question should be extended to where are the bolts located in the Trapps? This is a far more difficult question. Probably shoudl qualify the question with "bolts placed before 1990." Good luck!

(4) And finally, do your readers know that there were 2 (TWO!) Gunks guides prior to the 1964 Art Gran guidebook? Do they know who were the authors and which routes were described in them?

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#11969 - 06/09/04 03:03 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

Quote:

Dirty Girdie
Laurel
Ape Call

From the 1980 Williams Guide


Daryl




didn't see laurel. there is also 1 more




airy area

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#11970 - 08/01/04 08:42 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5977
Loc: 212 land
(4) And finally, do your readers know that there were 2 (TWO!) Gunks guides prior to the 1964 Art Gran guidebook? Do they know who were the authors and which routes were described in them?

Ok Roy, we give up.
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#50801 - 03/16/10 02:29 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: oenophore]
Roy Kligfield Offline
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Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Boulder, CO
Here's the answer--7 years later.

The original guide was collated Dave Ingalls a number of years prior to the issuance of the Art Gran guidebook in 1964. This was entitled by him "Clmbing list of the Shawangunks". It contained a list of about ahundred climbs with three rating systems side-by-side: The Gran rating, the IOCA rating and the AMC rating. If any historian wants to see a copy of this I can provide it. Send me an e-mail to r.kligfield@comast.net.

The second guide was of course the article by Hans Kraus in the Appalachian Mountain Club journal, circa 1962 or 1963--again before the issuance by the AAC of the Gran guidebook.

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#50805 - 03/16/10 04:33 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5977
Loc: 212 land
If any historian wants to see a copy of this I can provide it. Send me an e-mail to r.kligfield@comast.net.


Roy, you'll find responding to every e-mail request taxing. A couple of years ago, I posted here that I scanned all three issues of the Vulgarian Digest, offering to e-mail copies on request. The response induced me to put the scans on Photobucket for one and all to download. Flickr is another site that enables you to do this.
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#50816 - 03/17/10 04:02 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
Roy Kligfield Offline
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Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Boulder, CO
Some clarifications on previous posting.

(1) The Dave Ingalls "guidebook" is a listing of Shawangunk routes with grades from different rating systems. It refers to Art Gran lists, IOCA lists and AMC lists--in effect it is a compilation of routes. The date on the pages is 3/27/62. The areas mentioned within are "The Traps" (sic), Mohonk, Millbrook, Lost City, and "Far Traps (second range)".

Regarding the latter, there are 3 climbs listed in the Far Traps: Adolf, Susi and Wasp Ridge. My assumption is that Far Traps refers to the Near Trapps of current useage, but this is not certain.

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#50817 - 03/17/10 04:04 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
Roy Kligfield Offline
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Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Boulder, CO
Further clarifications:
(1) The Appalachia (June 1960) Vol. XXXIII No. 1, pages 18-25 article with route desciptions is of course by Fritz Wiessner, not by Hans Kraus. Apologies for my mistake. There are 8 routes described including Foops!

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#50818 - 03/17/10 04:12 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
chip Offline
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Registered: 10/06/01
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Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I am sure Dick is well aware of the previously described routes and guides before he put out his first blue guide(I would love to catch the A-hole who took it out of my pack) but most of us are not at all. Thanks Roy.

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#50820 - 03/17/10 04:40 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: Roy Kligfield
Regarding the latter, there are 3 climbs listed in the Far Traps: Adolf, Susi and Wasp Ridge. My assumption is that Far Traps refers to the Near Trapps of current useage, but this is not certain.


That's something I asked about before but nobody responded.

The three routes aren't in any of the guides I have (I don't have the Gran), so where are they? My guess was that the "Second Range" refers to the Bayards?

The other question is then why aren't there any Nears routes on the list?


Edited to add:
Oops, actually, my original guess was Bonticou or somewhere out that way, as one of the old guidebooks shows an arrow pointing that way as "Far Out Trapps"



Edited by quanto_the_mad (03/17/10 04:46 PM)
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#50846 - 03/19/10 12:56 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Roy Kligfield Offline
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Registered: 03/16/10
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Loc: Boulder, CO
I've confirmed that the 3 routes in question are in the Near Trapps. If you read the Wiesnner article in Appalachia June 1960 Vol. XXXIII No. 1 page 22 this is clearly described.

The Dave Ingalls list apparently simply omitted any climbs in the Near Traps other than these 3. It included a total of 248 climbs when compiled in 1962. It was well known at the time that there were climbs in the Near Trapps other than the 3 mentioned so there is no simple explanation of why they were not included.

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#50855 - 03/19/10 12:08 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
Lucander Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 227
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
Response to Dana on the first page of thread in a discussion on 2 protection bolts in the Near Trapps: the 1/4 rusted spinner on Fat City is off to the left of how the route is commonly climbed today, which breaks right after the infamous crux. Check your Phoebe reference - that bolt was replaced last season.

A 5.6 in the private property zone of the afore-mentioned cliff has been retro-bolted so that what was once a neckyish top out is now quite safe. This, of course, raises all kinds of questions about the exact wording of deeds, respect for precedence, and the rights of private land owners - none of which I am well qualified to answer.

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#51792 - 05/03/10 01:44 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
There's also the 1966 Kelsey "A Supplement to A Climber's Guide to the Shawangunks" smile
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#59336 - 07/26/11 09:22 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: quanto_the_mad]
jstan Offline
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Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 22
I have a couple of trivial questions.

What the heck ever became of Kligfield and Ingalls?

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#59338 - 07/26/11 09:37 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: jstan]
Dana Offline
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Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Originally Posted By: jstan
I have a couple of trivial questions.

What the heck ever became of Kligfield and Ingalls?



Kligfield has posted on this site, but does not use his name.

No idea about Dave Ingalls

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#59341 - 07/26/11 09:52 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Ok, how about this one: Name a free climbing route that still has a copperhead (an aid piece not the snake) on it. I only know of one, maybe there are others?

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#59342 - 07/26/11 10:24 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: jstan]
rg@ofmc Online   content
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Don't know where Ingalls is now, but he became a member of the North American Man-Boy Love Association, (not making this up---Google it) where his duties may have preempted climbing...

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#59343 - 07/26/11 10:32 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Dana]
Rickster Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 850
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
As of March '10 Roy was posting as ... Roy Kligfield.

cfrac, fixed copperhead, on Twilight Zone?

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#59344 - 07/26/11 11:19 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Rickster]
jstan Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 22
Rich:
I avoid typing things like that into Google. Never can tell who is going to come banging on my front door. I don't need the hassle.

Just got a letter from our benefactor. Strange stuff going on.


Edited by jstan (07/26/11 11:23 PM)

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#59347 - 07/27/11 12:39 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Rickster]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Rickster
As of March '10 Roy was posting as ... Roy Kligfield.

cfrac, fixed copperhead, on Twilight Zone?


No copperheads on Twilight Zone, though I'm pretty sure I remember seeing heads on The Best Things in Life... several years ago. It's in the Trapps and to be fair it's listed as a variation, but it's between well traveled lines.

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#59389 - 07/29/11 03:16 AM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: rg@ofmc]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Don't know where Ingalls is now, but he became a member of the North American Man-Boy Love Association, (not making this up---Google it) where his duties may have preempted climbing...

Are you sure he didnt join the North American Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?


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#62336 - 01/17/12 11:44 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: jstan]
Roy Kligfield Offline
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Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Boulder, CO
I still exist, John. I live in Boulder, CO with my wife Carla. We don't climb much anymore but do a lot of hiking in the canyons of SE Utah. We have a vacation house there as well.

I have never been able to track down any further news about Dave Ingalls. The last we knew was over 20 years ago when he was temporarily incarcerated in Mexico. Since then, nothing.

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#62337 - 01/17/12 11:56 PM Re: 'Gunks route trivia [Re: Roy Kligfield]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 850
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Howdy Roy!

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