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#12591 - 07/26/04 11:59 AM Sente
cranken Offline
member

Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 122
Loc: the south, the north, the east...
So who lead it this weekend after the new bolts were installed? They look yummy
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#12592 - 07/27/04 04:18 AM Re: Sente [Re: cranken]
Steven Cherry Offline

veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1300
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Me, on Sunday morning. The first bolt is easier to clip now, it's a couple of feet left of where the old one was. The second, though, is moved almost 3 feet to the right, and a guy on Thin Slabs next to us said he can no longer lead the route because of that. At the risk of saying something silly, in a way, I liked it better with the old bolts. At some point they become totally unsafe, and then it's just soloing, and that's silly. But big new powerful bolts six feet apart are way out of character for the Gunks. It's still a nice climb of course.

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#12593 - 07/27/04 04:06 PM Re: Sente [Re: Steven Cherry]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1916
Loc: Los Angeles
They are mostly out of character ... but not completely out of character.

Keep in mind Arrow, Bear and Loathing, Turdland, Future Shock ... and even things like Pas de Deux having its original pins put in on rappel. Certainly not typical (nor necessarily appropriate) Gunks methodology. But not completely out of whack with Gunks history either.

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#12594 - 07/27/04 04:31 PM Re: Sente [Re: Steven Cherry]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

But big new powerful bolts six feet apart are way out of character for the Gunks.



Hardly. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the climb is now back to it's original character.
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#12595 - 07/27/04 08:09 PM Re: Sente [Re: MarcC]
paborden Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 366
Loc: On the road...
So, just wondering:

If you were replacing the bolts on Sente, why wouldn't you put the new bolts in either the same, or a roughly similar, position as the old ones? Am I overlooking something here? In other words, what I'm wondering is if something about the rock or history of the route dictated the change from three bolts to two widely spaced ones or if this change was merely a matter of personal judgement. I really have no idea...

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#12596 - 07/27/04 08:11 PM Re: Sente [Re: paborden]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
there is some judgement involved. I discussed this with the guy who replaced them some time ago and remember we talked about where they should go. But my memory is a bit fuzzy about the discussion...

So if you want someone to blame, here he is...
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#12597 - 07/28/04 02:01 AM Re: Sente [Re: MarcC]
Steven Cherry Offline

veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1300
Loc: New York, N.Y.
The route is back to its original character, but it's still out of character for the Gunks today.

There are two bolts on Arrow, not three, and they're much more than six feet apart. How many pins on Pas de Deux are there, and how far apart are they?

It's not a big deal, and I don't want to make a big deal of it.

But there are lots of stretches of comparable rock in the Gunks, and they don't have three bolts, or even pins, six feet apart from one another. Honky Tonk, Midnight Lightning, Fitschen's Folly, I'm sure there's plenty of others.

If Sente were in character for the Gunks, these other routes would be bolted like Sente is. They're not. That's all I'm saying.

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#12598 - 07/28/04 04:04 PM Re: Sente [Re: Steven Cherry]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Quote:

There are two bolts on Arrow, not three, and they're much more than six feet apart. How many pins on Pas de Deux are there, and how far apart are they?




There is marginal pro, and a reasonable stance, halfway between the two Arrow bolts.

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#12599 - 07/28/04 04:27 PM Re: Sente [Re: Steven Cherry]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Quote:

Keep in mind Arrow, Bear and Loathing, Turdland, Future Shock ... and even things like Pas de Deux having its original pins put in on rappel. Certainly not typical (nor necessarily appropriate) Gunks methodology. But not completely out of whack with Gunks history either.




I'm with Steve on this one. The fact that there are examples in Gunks history of individuals who flaunted the prevailing perspective about how the rock should be treated does not mean that these lapses should be viewed as characteristic. They may not be "out of whack" with Gunks history, but they are certainly not characteristic of Gunks climbing either, and the danger they present now is that they have been, are, and will be used as examples to argue that further rappel bolting is justified by historical precedent.

What is missing from most citings of these examples is the general approbation most of them met with. For example, Art Gran's orginal guide listed no first ascentionists for Pas de Deux, instead condemning what happened with the phrase, "unfortunately, not put in on the lead." I'm beginning to think it is also unfortunate that the Gunks community has almost always been charitable about such things and did not erase rappel bolted routes immediately. Of course, no one imagined battery powered drills and the influences of sport climbing back in the day.

The only thing that is keeping multiple lines of bolts from decorating every semi-blank strip of rock in the Gunks is the Preserve regulation against new bolts. The climbing community is losing its ability to preserve traditional climbing venues on its own, and the task is now passing to land managers, whose regulations are not based on climbing considerations but rather on issues of preservation and liability.

Personally, I think the deteriorating bolts on Sente should have been chopped, the holes patched, and the climb restored to the the status of a top-rope amusement. Alternatively, the first bolt, which could have been placed on the lead could be replaced, the second one, which could not be placed on the lead removed, and the route left as an R-X lead or headpoint for those who want such challenges.

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#12600 - 07/28/04 04:51 PM Re: Sente [Re: rg@ofmc]
Steven Cherry Offline

veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1300
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Quote:

Personally, I think the deteriorating bolts on Sente should have been chopped, the holes patched, and the climb restored to the the status of a top-rope amusement. Alternatively, the first bolt, which could have been placed on the lead could be replaced, the second one, which could not be placed on the lead removed, and the route left as an R-X lead or headpoint for those who want such challenges.




We didn't fiddle with it to make sure, but it looked like there was a micronut placement a little ways above the second bolt. I think a comparison to Midnight Cowboy might be apt. (How heady was that, Rich?)

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