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#13526 - 11/12/04 10:02 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
caver Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
At the risk of insighting any more heated debate over PetersKill Ratings..... , I totally disagree with Lester about Magic Mylil's being Hard Nine...NFW to that. I have climbed plenty of 10a's here in the Gunks, and that climb is way harder. In fact even though Mike R. hasn't spoken up here, he agreed with me about the climb being 10c as he was watching me climb it 2 weeks ago! I would be willing to comprimise a bit to 10b, but no lower. Sometimes folks that can climb 5.11 or 12 have a bias about lower grades. I know I find 5.7 relatively easy after working a hard 10. Might that be the case here?

As for Crack-a-Lack, I put that in the same catagory of hard tens, at least 10b maybe 10c. The move to clear the overhang and the lack of decent holds above has stumped me so far. Perhaps some folks have other opinions and that's fine. Please give some reasons not just random comments. As I've said before, thare are several factors that play into everyone's ratings. Height, strength, Lead and top rope limit to name a few. Personally I do better on thin technical climbs rather than overhanging 'pumpy' climbs, so I'm sure I have my own bias.Yesterday was just warm enough to climb for a few hours(good thing as we have 3 inches of snow today) I removed the remnants of the Yellow jacket nest on Crack-a-Lack, and yes there is a side pull where the nest was although it didn't do me any good!
-MF

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#13527 - 11/12/04 11:51 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
It was 10c long before you hung your way up it.

Yes, Crackalack is similarly hard, but more importantly I think the line goes significantly farther right at the 'hang than the guidebook indicates.

On a totally different level... I climbed Dick's Prick (far down the Trapps) yesterday. Swain has the grade on this one (5.6+ vs. DW's 5.6) but any 5.6 leader should be advised that you're facing groundfall for at least 20-25 feet. And the climbing is WAY insecure for the grade. But the bonus is the TR setup right over Foreign Lesion, a dirty, overgrown (the tree behind you is a bit too friendly), seldom travelled but ultimately delightful little bit of steep rock. A bit of a 'bag at DW's 10-; again Swain is closer IMO.

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#13528 - 11/13/04 06:50 AM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

On a totally different level... I climbed Dick's Prick (far down the Trapps) yesterday. Swain has the grade on this one (5.6+ vs. DW's 5.6) but any 5.6 leader should be advised that you're facing groundfall for at least 20-25 feet.



Is the first protection piton - the one that keeps you off the deck - still driven into the tree that's almost behind you when you start?
_________________________
- Marc

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#13529 - 11/13/04 12:12 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: MarcC]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I didn't see a pin in the tree, but I can't say I was looking for one there. I did realize I could have slung the trunk with a runner if I really needed something. There is a fixed pin about 15' up that is 98% junk.

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#13530 - 11/13/04 12:44 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

but more importantly I think the line goes significantly farther right at the 'hang than the guidebook indicates.





i think you're right...stuff was chalked to the left above the hang, but folks may have been using them to avoid the nest...it's a long way to the flat edge above them...

beta warning...

too late after thinking too much about the guide description, i set up much better coming at the hang way right, directly towards the nest, where there's an incipinet horizontal nest high, off those two decent pockets a foot or so above the hang (solid yellow alien in the right one you don't lose as a hold when it's placed)...i missed a good looking pocket on the right side of the incipient, and came off backing down, too blown to give it another go, too blown almost to finish on reach around...

once you grab the pockets, the right foot comes up to a little shelf at the hang, which feels pretty friendly pushing off of going for the incipient...it looks a little sporty getting to the next horizontal...

the route is much steeper than it looks from the guide picture, where it appears almost to be a slab...

good, sustained fun...feels like 10b so far...
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13531 - 11/16/04 02:15 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

I totally disagree with Lester about Magic Mylil's being Hard Nine




i got on milil's over the weekend...great route, but i have to agree with lester, sort of...

the only move that felt 10a'ish is the headwall, moving left and up towards that spooky arete...like nosedive, you get there after a lot of burlish 9...how quickly you can dispatch the first twenty feet is key...

if you plug and chug through that lower section and dissect the roof move without much incident, you're plenty warmed up with maybe enough juice left for the arete...hang out at all for an extra piece, like i did, and/or make several tries at the roof, like i did, and a good chance you're doomed...while there are decent stances and no dick placements, there are no real rests (throwing a leg in the horizontal didn't quite work long enough to shake out between tries at the roof)...i was cooked after the mantle, cooked enough that i couldn't recover no matter how long i stood on the ledge...with nothing left approaching the headwall, and no beta, i backed off...the first twenty feet might be 9+...

with a long rest and dark coming down, i wussed out and finished it quickly on TR...i'd compare it to the hard nines like le teton or beatle brow bulge where success depends largely on how long you hang out to protect them, with an extra 10a move thrown in, just shy of nosedive's 10b...





_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13532 - 11/16/04 08:37 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:


snipped the details of Yorick's epic battle with the pump, ultimately the pump winning.





So unless you feel that a picth's rating is NEVER more than the hardest move, you're saying that yea, MMA is solid 10.

It is exactly this sustained and multi-crux nature that makes it so hard to climb (esp. to lead) without a hang. 10c in my book.

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#13533 - 11/17/04 02:15 PM P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:


So unless you feel that a picth's rating is NEVER more than the hardest move, you're saying that yea, MMA is solid 10.





i'd call it 10a...

for a long time my understanding had been that multi-cruxes and sustained pitches could raise the grade of a route, like nosedive, which may not have a 10b move on it, until i began doing a little guidebook work with dw...unless my memory has completely failed, i'm pretty sure the protocol was that a route could NEVER be rated harder than its hardest move - though there's probably ample evidence to suggest otherwise...

the other hard rule he used was keeping in mind how the route would appear to the leader pushing the grade arriving for an on-sight...

as i got in shape late in the season, i wanted to get an honest assessment of my on-sighting ability, rather than reworking the 10s in the trapps and the nears (where my shot at on-sights has dwindled to a precious few that are out of range right now): hence my excursion into peter's kill...when two of the first three went so easily, i wondered about the grading there, and began inquiring around about them...

having been spanked on three of the five i tried, methinks i wondered too soon...we might quibble about a letter grade here and there, but i'm begining to feel that the 10s at peter's kill are quite consistant with the gradings on the preserve...
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13534 - 11/17/04 03:40 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: yorick]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Quote:

...unless my memory has completely failed, i'm pretty sure the protocol was that a route could NEVER be rated harder than its hardest move - though there's probably ample evidence to suggest otherwise...




That was the traditional protocol. Modern areas like Rumney explicitly grade based on "the overall physical difficulty of climbing from the ground to the anchors without falling."

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#13535 - 11/17/04 09:08 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: yorick]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
DW is free to apply whatever criteria suit his fancy, but that by no means means it's the law of the land. Swain uses the "whole pitch" basis for grading. See Tennish Anyone in his guide for an example.

As for my personal preference, well all I can say is the 20th chinup is a lot harder than the first ones. Same move though. Ain't no 12a move on No Solution...

(Gee, it's not even winter yet and I'm already mired in fractions-of-a-rating discussion. )

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