Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 11 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#13536 - 11/18/04 01:48 AM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: Mike Rawdon]
caver Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
I hope all you ratings critics will be at the Gunks.com party come this Saturday eve (5 ish?) for some more heated debate about this issue..... especially after a few beers!!
-M

Top
#13537 - 11/18/04 02:14 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

DW is free to apply whatever criteria suit his fancy, but that by no means means it's the law of the land.





yup, no doubt he came up with that whim over night...

as i believe he mentioned in his interview here, the grading in the black guides reflected results from a survey that included many visiting climbers, one in which he reported a striking degree of consensus throughout the survey...where there were discrepancies, they appeared to uniformly involve height-relatedness...this suggests, where applicable, that the "entire pitch" method generated consensus over "hardest move," so routes like nosedive and no solution retain grades more difficult than their hardest move...this, despite the select guide's later claim that "The difficulty and protection grades refer to the most difficult move (crux) of the most difficult pitch on the route."

i'm not pointing out the discrepancy in dw's methodology so much as suggesting the conservative and rigorous nature of gunks grading consensus, one that retains a demanding check on grade inflation by employing "hardest move" as something of a baseline...


Quote:

well all I can say is the 20th chinup is a lot harder than the first ones. Same move though. Ain't no 12a move on No Solution...





dare i suggest that competency and success at leading into more difficult grades demands efficiency as much as strength, something i woefully forgot on milil's...
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

Top
#13538 - 11/18/04 07:38 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: yorick]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Some thoughts.

How the guidebook writer arrives at a grade, and how a climber walking up for the onsight should interpret it, are two different things.

Walking up for the onsight, you should assume that everything is given a "hardest move" grade - that is to say, assume that you don't have any information at all about how sustained things are, and err on the conservative side. Since it's pretty hard to consistently assign a grade based on pump factor (too many variables at play) that's the only sane alternative for the visiting onsight climber.

That being said, I think grades should have some reflection of pump factor. But if pump was the only factor in grading, one-move wonders would be graded easier than they should be, if a strong climber is doing the grading: City Streets would be 5.9...

Pump is perceived differently by climbers with different levels of raw strength. Weaker climbers may find it easier to "fall up" a pumpy route whereas a harder one move wonder will shut them down completely; to the stronger climber, the 5.10 one-move wonder will feel easier than the 5.9 pumpfest...

Top
#13539 - 11/27/04 06:44 AM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:

I totally disagree with Lester about Magic Mylil's being Hard Nine...NFW to that.




Remember, I said my partner and I argued whether it was a 9+ or a 10a. I felt that it was 10a.

Quote:

Sometimes folks that can climb 5.11 or 12 have a bias about lower grades.




True. But at the time, I was also climbing a LOT of 5.10s ... so I believe I had a fair perspective on 5.10 routes.

Quote:

MMA is solid 10. It is exactly this sustained and multi-crux nature that makes it so hard to climb (esp. to lead) without a hang. 10c in my book.




I look at MMA and I see a very short route. A good ledge to stand on right after the first initial overhang where you can get a complete rest before tackling the upper part. The gear is not super tricky requiring long hangs. The upper crux is steep, but short. When I look at other solid and hard 10s, there's no way I can put MMA in the same category. It's not harder than Doublissima which is far more sustained. It's not even in the same league as Ridiculissima. I don't think it's as hard as Cheap Thrills or Star Action -- which are 10b/c in my book. Welcome to the Gunks is 10a (maybe 10b). Is MMA harder? I don't think so.

Quote:

I think grades should have some reflection of pump factor. But if pump was the only factor in grading, one-move wonders would be graded easier than they should be, if a strong climber is doing the grading: City Streets would be 5.9...




Grades generally do take into account the pump factor ... especially in the Gunks where overhangs are the rule to the exception. A 5.10 grade usually takes into consideration the fact that one is often on steeper, more difficult terrain with fewer opportunities for rest and more endurance involved placing gear and making moves. But either way you slice it, City Streets is not a 9. It's just too technical. After the long reach out left, the ability to reset the feet correctly and the strength required to prevent the barn door effect place this little route in the 5.10 category.

Quote:

Ain't no 12a move on No Solution...




Actually, due in small part to my complete lack of flexibility, I've always thought No Solution was pretty darn hard. The high step for me was a killer. And the upper moves are very thin, very steep and not obvious. OTOH, this route might be a bit easier for shorter folk. I used to see the smaller climbers breeze through the high step and handle the tweakers above with much better moves than I ever found. Eh, who knows?

I think a better example of a route that doesn't have a move on it as hard as its overall grade is To Be Or Not To Be. Bottom crux 5.11c, upper crux 5.11c/d ... with lots of 5.10-5.11 climbing in between. Which is why I feel The Sting is 12a ... 11d opening crux, 11c middle crux, 11c/d finish. Lead that onsight and tell me it's not 12a.

Top
#13540 - 12/01/04 01:27 AM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was wondering if anyone has climbed The Land of the Lost (the climb that goes over the ravens nest) The book has it at an 11b but I am not to sure about that. The climb is pretty balancy at the bottom and then powerfull at the top traversing over the ledge with the ravens nest but 11b seems high for this climb.

What about Mya? My book has this as a 10 but I think it is harder. Traversing right at the roof is so hard!

Top
#13541 - 12/01/04 02:47 AM Re: P'Kill ratings?
TimTheClimber Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 187
Loc: New Paltz
Land of the Lost was my first 11, at a period in time when I was only climbing moderate tens, and it was an onsight. I would have to agree with you on that one... I'd give it 10c/d , but it is a pretty cool climb!
_________________________

Top
#13542 - 12/06/04 12:59 AM Re: P'Kill ratings?
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:


What about Mya? My book has this as a 10 but I think it is harder. Traversing right at the roof is so hard!





I was working on Mya again today. I firmly believe there's no 5.10 way to connect the fun lower face to the cracks in the upper section. There's a scar where something MAY have broken off at the top of the arete. Maybe??

I ended up working left (harder than 10) and then back right (even harder) to gain the finger crack. It was some of the thinnest, hardest face climbing I've ever done (like 5.12 hard).

Oh well, something to ponder this winter.

Top
#13543 - 12/06/04 09:11 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
Forgot to mention ...

For anyone interested in Millil's Magic Arete ... I highly recommend checking out Writer's Bloc on top-rope. It's easily set up after completing MMA and is a nice steep face.

The guide has the route starting down in the chasm beneath the platform, but when I originally TRed (then later lead) this route, I started off the obvious big platform. If you do it that way, the route is much closer to 11c (instead of 12b) and quite nice ... a slightly overhanging, clean orange face along shallow flakes and corners. A really cool move near the end.

Anyone been on this puppy?

Top
#13544 - 12/06/04 09:23 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Sounds like a good cooldown route if/when I ever get Mya.

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4


Moderator:  Mike Rawdon, Steven Cherry 
Sponsored