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#13506 - 11/08/04 02:44 PM P'Kill ratings?
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
have to add some brew to the rating stew at peter's kill...oops and circuit breaker feel a wee soft for mid-range 10, like a letter-grade or two soft...both seem a little easier than most of the entry-level 10s on the preserve, though they're both terrific leads with great gear for anyone wishing to break into the grade...

i had a lot more trouble figuring out motorcycle diaries, which feels about right at 10a, though the exit move out of that low crux is deceptive and gripping...

and what about that PG rating on pencil & johnny's arete?...maybe i'm picking, and bouldery starts are something of a tradition here, but the crux is off the ground and unprotected, your first piece is marginal, so you're 15 feet up before a solid placement...then there's that move right off-line for gear into floops (which looked awkward and felt unsporting to get to, off a lousy little tcu way back left around the arete), and a good 15-20 feet to the next big horizontal through easier, but very steep climbing...if the gear-rating by definition reflects the crux move, and the rest of route is easier but the gear is sketchy in spots, how about a cautionary PG13-R for those sections of the route, like proctor-silex or welcome to the gunks?...

or am i just wussing?...
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#13507 - 11/08/04 02:55 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Also. Is Daddy-Long-Legs really 5.8, or is it an accurately-graded one-move 5.9?

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#13508 - 11/08/04 06:46 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
GRRRRR!
You had to bring up the PG-R rating on Welcome to the Gunks....
I did that and Turdland in the same day and I must say WTTG felt like a comfortable PG and Turdland made me crap my pants (it is given a PG). I've never climbed at Pkill but I must say... seems like wherever I climb I have my own grading system thats skewed from what anyone else has to say about it. Guess thats all part of the fun.......
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#13509 - 11/08/04 10:20 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
caver Offline
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Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
Yorrick has it right, the ratings on the Opps wall are generally soft-as are many of the climbs at the P-Kill. Actually the ratings there are just not accurate, as some of the 5.10s should have letter grades such as Magic Mylil's (10c), Crack-a-lack (10c) harder than they appear. There has not been enough climbing at the P-Kill to have established more of a consensus. (Unlike the Trapps/Nears/SkyTop) Of course there will always be a difference of opinion since everyone's skills vary, as do heights! With each new generation of climbers there will be an evening out of grade.There may be a new guide book in the works for the PetersKill and comments from this web site are being considered in adjusting the ratings as are disscusions with climbers at the 'Kill'. I read about a phenomenon recently called 'Grade Wander' where an isolated cliimbing area will develop it's own grades when not climbed/rated by visiting climbers. Remember most of these routes were put up recently by only a hand full of local,folks. Nothing against those involved, Hats off to them, but modern climbers have a different view of grades vs. the older 'hardmen' who rated everything 5.6 even if it really was a hard 5.9 (lack of a grading system!?). As the area becomes more popular, and a wider variety of climbers go there, things should reach a consensus.
-MF

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#13510 - 11/08/04 11:12 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
oops? soft? WTF?
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#13511 - 11/09/04 05:10 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: empicard]
GeeVee Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
oops? soft? WTF?

I believe that caver is saying that the ratings are perhaps a little less than the the climbs deserve (or to put it another way, the climbs are harder than their ratings). Or would you disagree with that? My own experience with Peter's Kill is that they are all over the place - but what do I know?
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#13512 - 11/09/04 05:18 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: GeeVee]
MarcC Offline
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Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

oops? soft? WTF?

I believe that caver is saying that the ratings are perhaps a little less than the the climbs deserve (or to put it another way, the climbs are harder than their ratings).




Having never climbed at P-Kill, I can't comment directly on the ratings, however, originally yorick wrote:
oops and circuit breaker feel a wee soft for mid-range 10, like a letter-grade or two soft...both seem a little easier than most of the entry-level 10s on the preserve, though they're both terrific leads with great gear for anyone wishing to break into the grade...


Caver agreed with this - I think. In any case, it's generally accepted that when someone says the "grades are soft", it means that the routes are overgraded. Saying a route is soft for 10a implies that it's a good route for 5.9 leaders; ie: a good route to break into the grade.
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#13513 - 11/09/04 05:20 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: MarcC]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
ok. sorry.
i understood what he meant by commenting that the grades were soft. i disagree. oops was hard as hell, i still havent gotten it on TR.
i do agree that P'Kill rating are all over the place.
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#13514 - 11/09/04 05:57 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: empicard]
Dominic Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 68
Loc: Troy NY
Just to provide a quick altenate opinion. Oops i think is hardest at the bottom (sequency?) and even there it is much easier if you are tall. It was actually my first 10 lead at the gunks i liked it so much.

Id agree that the grades at p'kill are all over the place, and perhaps a bit soft.

Though due to p'kill's proximity to the gunks proper i find it hard to make and accurate judgement... its a bit like calling Newark a small town.

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#13515 - 11/09/04 06:10 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: empicard]
strat Offline
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Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

ok. sorry.
i understood what he meant by commenting that the grades were soft. i disagree. oops was hard as hell, i still havent gotten it on TR.
i do agree that P'Kill rating are all over the place.





Evan, What other 5.10's of a similar nature to Oops (steep face) have you been able to climb clean that makes you think Oops is accurately graded?

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#13516 - 11/09/04 06:27 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: strat]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
alright fine! you called me on it.
i have no idea what im talking about, i just think its hard.
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tOOthless

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#13517 - 11/09/04 07:26 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: empicard]
Smike Offline
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Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Is oops the one on the steep face a little left of center that is always sorta wet, green and slimy? Thin down low?

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#13518 - 11/09/04 07:38 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Smike]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
yes.
really slimy, and really thin.
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#13519 - 11/09/04 07:50 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: strat]
Mike Rawdon Offline

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Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

Evan, What other 5.10's of a similar nature to Oops (steep face) have you been able to climb clean that makes you think Oops is accurately graded?




Excellent cross examination there counselor.

I will volunteer that Ooops is comparable to "Red Cabbage" with the right hand start. Steep, fingery, some long reaches. Both 10a-ish IMO.

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#13520 - 11/10/04 01:16 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

I will volunteer that Ooops is comparable to "Red Cabbage" with the right hand start. Steep, fingery, some long reaches. Both 10a-ish IMO.




nice comparison, mike...

my point that these routes are soft is based on a pretty lousy on-sight record of 10s in the gunks...being older, fatter, and weaker, both oops and circuit breaker (on the breaker wall) yielded on-sights rather jauntily, about doubling my on-sight success on gunks 10s in one happy weekend...true to form, i blew the on-sight on motorcycle diaries, which felt stiffer than the other two, but is rated a letter grade easier, and feels comparable to an entry-level gunks 10 like criss cross direct...though i didn't lead it, floops felt every bit the mid-range 10, as does fickle fingers left of golden dream...oops and circuit breaker aren't in the same category...

i'd put them in there with the softest of 10a's, hang ten, and because they're very gear friendly, i'd submit they'd make great additions to the 'breaking into the grade' forum, where the peter's kill is quite under-represented...

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#13521 - 11/10/04 01:46 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
empicard Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
ok, now im extra confused. which one is floops and which is oops?
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tOOthless

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#13522 - 11/10/04 01:55 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: empicard]
yorick Offline
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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
of the three routes in the guidebook, arete is left, floops is middle, oops is right (though it's directly in the middle of the block)...
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it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13523 - 11/11/04 10:15 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:

Actually the ratings there are just not accurate, as some of the 5.10s should have letter grades such as Magic Mylil's (10c




I was on what was possibly the first ascent of Millil's Magic Arete and there's no way that route is 10c. My partner that day and I had discussions over whether it was 10a or just a really hard 5.9.


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#13524 - 11/11/04 10:20 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: GymClimbingPoser]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:

GRRRRR!
You had to bring up the PG-R rating on Welcome to the Gunks....
I did that and Turdland in the same day and I must say WTTG felt like a comfortable PG and Turdland made me crap my pants (it is given a PG).




Off topic ... but ... I think the difference in the pro rating on these routes has to do with the difficulty of the moves at the run-out sections in comparison with the overall grade. Turdland is 10a or 9+ depending on how you do the crux. The run-out section is 5.7. WTTG is 10a, but the run-out part is 5.9 -- and with a definite possibility of hitting the small ledge if you fall.

Having said that, I do agree the ratings feel reversed. On Turdland you "feel" more run-out than on WTTG. And on WTTG you can get a decent nut in a placement near the manky pin.

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#13525 - 11/12/04 03:05 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

[My partner that day and I had discussions over whether it was 10a or just a really hard 5.9.






wished i'd hopped on milil's instead of crack-a-lack...another blown on-sight, and perhaps, another check in the accurate grade column...but i'm pleased to report that that huge hornet's nest in the middle of the crux has been abandoned...anybody know if there are any holds hidden behind that thing?...
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13526 - 11/12/04 10:02 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
caver Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
At the risk of insighting any more heated debate over PetersKill Ratings..... , I totally disagree with Lester about Magic Mylil's being Hard Nine...NFW to that. I have climbed plenty of 10a's here in the Gunks, and that climb is way harder. In fact even though Mike R. hasn't spoken up here, he agreed with me about the climb being 10c as he was watching me climb it 2 weeks ago! I would be willing to comprimise a bit to 10b, but no lower. Sometimes folks that can climb 5.11 or 12 have a bias about lower grades. I know I find 5.7 relatively easy after working a hard 10. Might that be the case here?

As for Crack-a-Lack, I put that in the same catagory of hard tens, at least 10b maybe 10c. The move to clear the overhang and the lack of decent holds above has stumped me so far. Perhaps some folks have other opinions and that's fine. Please give some reasons not just random comments. As I've said before, thare are several factors that play into everyone's ratings. Height, strength, Lead and top rope limit to name a few. Personally I do better on thin technical climbs rather than overhanging 'pumpy' climbs, so I'm sure I have my own bias.Yesterday was just warm enough to climb for a few hours(good thing as we have 3 inches of snow today) I removed the remnants of the Yellow jacket nest on Crack-a-Lack, and yes there is a side pull where the nest was although it didn't do me any good!
-MF

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#13527 - 11/12/04 11:51 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
It was 10c long before you hung your way up it.

Yes, Crackalack is similarly hard, but more importantly I think the line goes significantly farther right at the 'hang than the guidebook indicates.

On a totally different level... I climbed Dick's Prick (far down the Trapps) yesterday. Swain has the grade on this one (5.6+ vs. DW's 5.6) but any 5.6 leader should be advised that you're facing groundfall for at least 20-25 feet. And the climbing is WAY insecure for the grade. But the bonus is the TR setup right over Foreign Lesion, a dirty, overgrown (the tree behind you is a bit too friendly), seldom travelled but ultimately delightful little bit of steep rock. A bit of a 'bag at DW's 10-; again Swain is closer IMO.

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#13528 - 11/13/04 06:50 AM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

On a totally different level... I climbed Dick's Prick (far down the Trapps) yesterday. Swain has the grade on this one (5.6+ vs. DW's 5.6) but any 5.6 leader should be advised that you're facing groundfall for at least 20-25 feet.



Is the first protection piton - the one that keeps you off the deck - still driven into the tree that's almost behind you when you start?
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#13529 - 11/13/04 12:12 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: MarcC]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I didn't see a pin in the tree, but I can't say I was looking for one there. I did realize I could have slung the trunk with a runner if I really needed something. There is a fixed pin about 15' up that is 98% junk.

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#13530 - 11/13/04 12:44 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

but more importantly I think the line goes significantly farther right at the 'hang than the guidebook indicates.





i think you're right...stuff was chalked to the left above the hang, but folks may have been using them to avoid the nest...it's a long way to the flat edge above them...

beta warning...

too late after thinking too much about the guide description, i set up much better coming at the hang way right, directly towards the nest, where there's an incipinet horizontal nest high, off those two decent pockets a foot or so above the hang (solid yellow alien in the right one you don't lose as a hold when it's placed)...i missed a good looking pocket on the right side of the incipient, and came off backing down, too blown to give it another go, too blown almost to finish on reach around...

once you grab the pockets, the right foot comes up to a little shelf at the hang, which feels pretty friendly pushing off of going for the incipient...it looks a little sporty getting to the next horizontal...

the route is much steeper than it looks from the guide picture, where it appears almost to be a slab...

good, sustained fun...feels like 10b so far...
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Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13531 - 11/16/04 02:15 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

I totally disagree with Lester about Magic Mylil's being Hard Nine




i got on milil's over the weekend...great route, but i have to agree with lester, sort of...

the only move that felt 10a'ish is the headwall, moving left and up towards that spooky arete...like nosedive, you get there after a lot of burlish 9...how quickly you can dispatch the first twenty feet is key...

if you plug and chug through that lower section and dissect the roof move without much incident, you're plenty warmed up with maybe enough juice left for the arete...hang out at all for an extra piece, like i did, and/or make several tries at the roof, like i did, and a good chance you're doomed...while there are decent stances and no dick placements, there are no real rests (throwing a leg in the horizontal didn't quite work long enough to shake out between tries at the roof)...i was cooked after the mantle, cooked enough that i couldn't recover no matter how long i stood on the ledge...with nothing left approaching the headwall, and no beta, i backed off...the first twenty feet might be 9+...

with a long rest and dark coming down, i wussed out and finished it quickly on TR...i'd compare it to the hard nines like le teton or beatle brow bulge where success depends largely on how long you hang out to protect them, with an extra 10a move thrown in, just shy of nosedive's 10b...





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Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13532 - 11/16/04 08:37 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:


snipped the details of Yorick's epic battle with the pump, ultimately the pump winning.





So unless you feel that a picth's rating is NEVER more than the hardest move, you're saying that yea, MMA is solid 10.

It is exactly this sustained and multi-crux nature that makes it so hard to climb (esp. to lead) without a hang. 10c in my book.

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#13533 - 11/17/04 02:15 PM P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:


So unless you feel that a picth's rating is NEVER more than the hardest move, you're saying that yea, MMA is solid 10.





i'd call it 10a...

for a long time my understanding had been that multi-cruxes and sustained pitches could raise the grade of a route, like nosedive, which may not have a 10b move on it, until i began doing a little guidebook work with dw...unless my memory has completely failed, i'm pretty sure the protocol was that a route could NEVER be rated harder than its hardest move - though there's probably ample evidence to suggest otherwise...

the other hard rule he used was keeping in mind how the route would appear to the leader pushing the grade arriving for an on-sight...

as i got in shape late in the season, i wanted to get an honest assessment of my on-sighting ability, rather than reworking the 10s in the trapps and the nears (where my shot at on-sights has dwindled to a precious few that are out of range right now): hence my excursion into peter's kill...when two of the first three went so easily, i wondered about the grading there, and began inquiring around about them...

having been spanked on three of the five i tried, methinks i wondered too soon...we might quibble about a letter grade here and there, but i'm begining to feel that the 10s at peter's kill are quite consistant with the gradings on the preserve...
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13534 - 11/17/04 03:40 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: yorick]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Quote:

...unless my memory has completely failed, i'm pretty sure the protocol was that a route could NEVER be rated harder than its hardest move - though there's probably ample evidence to suggest otherwise...




That was the traditional protocol. Modern areas like Rumney explicitly grade based on "the overall physical difficulty of climbing from the ground to the anchors without falling."

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#13535 - 11/17/04 09:08 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: yorick]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
DW is free to apply whatever criteria suit his fancy, but that by no means means it's the law of the land. Swain uses the "whole pitch" basis for grading. See Tennish Anyone in his guide for an example.

As for my personal preference, well all I can say is the 20th chinup is a lot harder than the first ones. Same move though. Ain't no 12a move on No Solution...

(Gee, it's not even winter yet and I'm already mired in fractions-of-a-rating discussion. )

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#13536 - 11/18/04 01:48 AM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: Mike Rawdon]
caver Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 260
Loc: High Falls
I hope all you ratings critics will be at the Gunks.com party come this Saturday eve (5 ish?) for some more heated debate about this issue..... especially after a few beers!!
-M

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#13537 - 11/18/04 02:14 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: Mike Rawdon]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

DW is free to apply whatever criteria suit his fancy, but that by no means means it's the law of the land.





yup, no doubt he came up with that whim over night...

as i believe he mentioned in his interview here, the grading in the black guides reflected results from a survey that included many visiting climbers, one in which he reported a striking degree of consensus throughout the survey...where there were discrepancies, they appeared to uniformly involve height-relatedness...this suggests, where applicable, that the "entire pitch" method generated consensus over "hardest move," so routes like nosedive and no solution retain grades more difficult than their hardest move...this, despite the select guide's later claim that "The difficulty and protection grades refer to the most difficult move (crux) of the most difficult pitch on the route."

i'm not pointing out the discrepancy in dw's methodology so much as suggesting the conservative and rigorous nature of gunks grading consensus, one that retains a demanding check on grade inflation by employing "hardest move" as something of a baseline...


Quote:

well all I can say is the 20th chinup is a lot harder than the first ones. Same move though. Ain't no 12a move on No Solution...





dare i suggest that competency and success at leading into more difficult grades demands efficiency as much as strength, something i woefully forgot on milil's...
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#13538 - 11/18/04 07:38 PM Re: P' Kill ratings: conclusion [Re: yorick]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Some thoughts.

How the guidebook writer arrives at a grade, and how a climber walking up for the onsight should interpret it, are two different things.

Walking up for the onsight, you should assume that everything is given a "hardest move" grade - that is to say, assume that you don't have any information at all about how sustained things are, and err on the conservative side. Since it's pretty hard to consistently assign a grade based on pump factor (too many variables at play) that's the only sane alternative for the visiting onsight climber.

That being said, I think grades should have some reflection of pump factor. But if pump was the only factor in grading, one-move wonders would be graded easier than they should be, if a strong climber is doing the grading: City Streets would be 5.9...

Pump is perceived differently by climbers with different levels of raw strength. Weaker climbers may find it easier to "fall up" a pumpy route whereas a harder one move wonder will shut them down completely; to the stronger climber, the 5.10 one-move wonder will feel easier than the 5.9 pumpfest...

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#13539 - 11/27/04 06:44 AM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: caver]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:

I totally disagree with Lester about Magic Mylil's being Hard Nine...NFW to that.




Remember, I said my partner and I argued whether it was a 9+ or a 10a. I felt that it was 10a.

Quote:

Sometimes folks that can climb 5.11 or 12 have a bias about lower grades.




True. But at the time, I was also climbing a LOT of 5.10s ... so I believe I had a fair perspective on 5.10 routes.

Quote:

MMA is solid 10. It is exactly this sustained and multi-crux nature that makes it so hard to climb (esp. to lead) without a hang. 10c in my book.




I look at MMA and I see a very short route. A good ledge to stand on right after the first initial overhang where you can get a complete rest before tackling the upper part. The gear is not super tricky requiring long hangs. The upper crux is steep, but short. When I look at other solid and hard 10s, there's no way I can put MMA in the same category. It's not harder than Doublissima which is far more sustained. It's not even in the same league as Ridiculissima. I don't think it's as hard as Cheap Thrills or Star Action -- which are 10b/c in my book. Welcome to the Gunks is 10a (maybe 10b). Is MMA harder? I don't think so.

Quote:

I think grades should have some reflection of pump factor. But if pump was the only factor in grading, one-move wonders would be graded easier than they should be, if a strong climber is doing the grading: City Streets would be 5.9...




Grades generally do take into account the pump factor ... especially in the Gunks where overhangs are the rule to the exception. A 5.10 grade usually takes into consideration the fact that one is often on steeper, more difficult terrain with fewer opportunities for rest and more endurance involved placing gear and making moves. But either way you slice it, City Streets is not a 9. It's just too technical. After the long reach out left, the ability to reset the feet correctly and the strength required to prevent the barn door effect place this little route in the 5.10 category.

Quote:

Ain't no 12a move on No Solution...




Actually, due in small part to my complete lack of flexibility, I've always thought No Solution was pretty darn hard. The high step for me was a killer. And the upper moves are very thin, very steep and not obvious. OTOH, this route might be a bit easier for shorter folk. I used to see the smaller climbers breeze through the high step and handle the tweakers above with much better moves than I ever found. Eh, who knows?

I think a better example of a route that doesn't have a move on it as hard as its overall grade is To Be Or Not To Be. Bottom crux 5.11c, upper crux 5.11c/d ... with lots of 5.10-5.11 climbing in between. Which is why I feel The Sting is 12a ... 11d opening crux, 11c middle crux, 11c/d finish. Lead that onsight and tell me it's not 12a.

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#13540 - 12/01/04 01:27 AM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: yorick]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was wondering if anyone has climbed The Land of the Lost (the climb that goes over the ravens nest) The book has it at an 11b but I am not to sure about that. The climb is pretty balancy at the bottom and then powerfull at the top traversing over the ledge with the ravens nest but 11b seems high for this climb.

What about Mya? My book has this as a 10 but I think it is harder. Traversing right at the roof is so hard!

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#13541 - 12/01/04 02:47 AM Re: P'Kill ratings?
TimTheClimber Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 187
Loc: New Paltz
Land of the Lost was my first 11, at a period in time when I was only climbing moderate tens, and it was an onsight. I would have to agree with you on that one... I'd give it 10c/d , but it is a pretty cool climb!
_________________________

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#13542 - 12/06/04 12:59 AM Re: P'Kill ratings?
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:


What about Mya? My book has this as a 10 but I think it is harder. Traversing right at the roof is so hard!





I was working on Mya again today. I firmly believe there's no 5.10 way to connect the fun lower face to the cracks in the upper section. There's a scar where something MAY have broken off at the top of the arete. Maybe??

I ended up working left (harder than 10) and then back right (even harder) to gain the finger crack. It was some of the thinnest, hardest face climbing I've ever done (like 5.12 hard).

Oh well, something to ponder this winter.

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#13543 - 12/06/04 09:11 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
LesterLeBlanc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1915
Loc: Los Angeles
Forgot to mention ...

For anyone interested in Millil's Magic Arete ... I highly recommend checking out Writer's Bloc on top-rope. It's easily set up after completing MMA and is a nice steep face.

The guide has the route starting down in the chasm beneath the platform, but when I originally TRed (then later lead) this route, I started off the obvious big platform. If you do it that way, the route is much closer to 11c (instead of 12b) and quite nice ... a slightly overhanging, clean orange face along shallow flakes and corners. A really cool move near the end.

Anyone been on this puppy?

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#13544 - 12/06/04 09:23 PM Re: P'Kill ratings? [Re: LesterLeBlanc]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Sounds like a good cooldown route if/when I ever get Mya.

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