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#15667 - 07/14/05 02:51 PM (Tour de France) Climbing Categories...
JoeKayak Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Manhattan
the only thing i've been able to deduce about cat 1, cat 2, cat 3 and beyond cat is that they are based on steepness, length and something else. i'm curious if anyone knows the exact definitions (or a source) and if these classifications apply to any of our regional hills (like some of the catskills climbs, 'daks climbs or even route 6 up to the bear mountain bridge from peekskill). and if you know what fall river road or trail ridge road--route 36 in colorado, RMNP, i'd be curious about that too.

thanks.

jk


Edited by webmaster (07/14/05 05:16 PM)

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#15668 - 07/15/05 04:22 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
hartmann Offline
member

Registered: 11/20/99
Posts: 161
Loc: Northfield, VT
The commentators on Eurosport were discussing this the other day. Originally, early 1900s, the climbs were classified by what the lowest gear a car would have to use to make it up the climb. Over time, the classification has evolved and takes into account average steepness, length, elevation, maximum steepness and possibly other things. The commentators did not know exactly. What I have done to give myself an idea of what categories some of the climbs I do, was to take the TDF climb length and average steepness of each climb for the past 2 years and put them into an excel sheet ploting each category in a different color. I then went out with my car and altimeter and measured the length and elevation gain of the climbs I do most frequently and added them to the excel sheet. This works pretty well even though there is some overlap between categories.

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#15669 - 07/18/05 03:35 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
dunno if this helps, but the climb from SLC to PC via the canyon=>interstate would be category 1...

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#15670 - 07/18/05 04:39 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
I think it is a subjective ranking of the climbs in that years tour by the director based on

- alititude gained
- steepness
- rise over run (percent grade)
- road conditions
- the postion of the climb in the race (early or late in the stage)

I know that you can see and feel a lot of cat 4 climbs around here, but not a lot of HC. I bet that Mt washington would be HC for sure (less than 50% paved, sustained at 12% + and 22% hardest with over 5k ft gained), But I think the ADK 540 and some places in the catskills wold easily hit cat 1.

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#15671 - 07/18/05 07:47 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: edk]
JoeKayak Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Manhattan


ed- i think that's what i was unclear on: it's subjective. thanks....

now i'm curious what our local stuff is...particulary, the really steep mf on route 28 in the catskills from pine hill up to bellayre...if anyone knows....

jk

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#15672 - 07/18/05 08:57 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
edk Offline
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Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:



ed- i think that's what i was unclear on: it's subjective. thanks....

now i'm curious what our local stuff is...particulary, the really steep mf on route 28 in the catskills from pine hill up to bellayre...if anyone knows....

jk




You could probably make it up...

- go out and ride a centruy with 10,000 gained THEN go ride that hill -- a cat 1 or worse!
- rest for three days, drive to the base, pedal up the top then go home and rest again - no worse then cat 3

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#15673 - 07/19/05 02:03 AM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: edk]
JoeKayak Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Manhattan
Quote:

Quote:



ed- i think that's what i was unclear on: it's subjective. thanks....

now i'm curious what our local stuff is...particulary, the really steep mf on route 28 in the catskills from pine hill up to bellayre...if anyone knows....

jk




You could probably make it up...

- go out and ride a centruy with 10,000 gained THEN go ride that hill -- a cat 1 or worse!
- rest for three days, drive to the base, pedal up the top then go home and rest again - no worse then cat 3




okay...since i've always wanted to ride from NP up over the ridge (or now that clove rd is paved all the way, that way) to the ashokan and then hit 28, ending on that climb...so i'll go with the beyond cat. there. i made it up. wow...self agrandizement is easy...

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#15674 - 07/19/05 01:04 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
Unfortunately, I don't think its really subjective. The HC climbs have always been HC, except I think Ventoux which went HC on the N-S side when they rebuilt the road.

They used to report the average gradient, max and length. The reason the long long long ride out of Salt Lake is not HC is that it never gets steep. Most of the HC climbs in the tour have signifcant parts that approach 20%! Its insane!

The below from VeloNews...
Quote:

Tour climbs are classified in five somewhat arbitrary categories:
CAT. 4 Usually less than 3km in length, an easy pitch that amounts to no more than a sustained rise in the road
CAT. 3 Slightly harder, up to 5km in length
CAT. 2 Between 5km and 10km, and steeper than a 4-percent grade
CAT. 1 Long and steep. Between 10km and 20km, and steeper than a 5-percent grade.
HORS CATEGORIE (HC) OR ABOVE CATEGORY The longest, steepest mountain climbs. Extremely difficult climbs, sometimes 15km to 20km, with grades often exceeding 10 percent.




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#15675 - 07/19/05 05:04 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: crackers]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Here's another link for ya:

Climbing categories explained - sorta

and a snippet from that site:

The organizers of the Tour de France also claim that the quality of
the road surface can influence the rating of a climb. If the surface
is very poor, like some of the more obscure climbs in the Pyrenees,
then the rating may be bumped up.

4th Category - the lowest category, climbs of 200-500 feet(70-150m).

3rd Category - climbs of 500-1600 feet(150-500m).

2nd Category - climbs of 1600-2700 ft.(500-800m)

1st Category - climbs of 2700-5000ft(800-1500m)

Hors Category - the hardest, climbs of 5000ft+(1500m+)


Hope this is helpful.

PS - for those who care, Mt Washington is definitely HC.
In case you had any doubt...
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#15676 - 07/19/05 05:49 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: edk]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
One thing i've noticed is that people seem to think that the hills get a different category based on whether they're at the beginning or end of the stage. Often it seems --to me at least-- that the route is actually different as well when the climb's grade gets changed. In Murphy's link they talk about the Galibier, but guess what, for HC galibier you start in the village, for 1st cat you start above the village having taken another road through town to reach the start of the 'true climbing'...

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#15677 - 07/19/05 08:37 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: crackers]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Well then back to it!

I'll be doing Mt Washington for the second time this year. Are there any other Gunkies heading up there for the hill climb this year?

I used to say I'd take a hard ride of hills (but short milage) over a long milage day any time. My thinking was that they both give different kinds of pain, but the long milage inflicts its pain a lot longer.

Then I climbed Mt. Washington -- witihout a doubt the hardest thing I have ever done on a bicycle. At one point the blood pounding in my ears was so load I couldnt hear, and I was sweating my ass off in 40F with 50mph wind and rain / fog. I finished in 1:30 and nearly cried when they threw the medal around my neck and a blanket over me.

It's the climb that made me realize just how good cyclists like Armstrong and Basso really are.

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#15678 - 07/20/05 11:21 AM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: edk]
JoeKayak Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Manhattan


i'd need to add some fiber to my diet before attempting mt washington...some carbon fiber. and i don't think i'm man enough to race that baby. but i am riding up mt evans in colorado, a 14er, this august and am quite excited about that (and it will either be on my fancy lightweight mountain bike if i bring it, or an aluminum/carbon rental). looks like my mt evans ride will be a few days after mt washington...there's a race up evan too (to which Tom Danielson holds the record): http://www.bicyclerace.com/index.htm. i expect to take many hours to do this HC (?) climb...

good luck on mt washington!!!

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#15679 - 07/20/05 12:56 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Whew! good luck with the climb! the link didn't work though.

Yeah Danielson won last year . I saw him go out with the lead grou pand they were stupid fast. I dont recall if he broke Hamiltons record but it is his home turf. MW may be the mother of the hill climbs here on the east coast, but man there are some climb in the MWV that make you sweat blood and cry.

I'll be using my trusty old steel road bike with my MTB crank set (gets me a better than 1:1 gear ratio), but it is slighty heavier than I would like.


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#15680 - 07/20/05 02:16 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: edk]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
I finished in 1:30 and nearly cried when they threw the medal around my neck and a blanket over me.

They give the cyclists a blanket? When you run up it they don't (or didn't on the couple of times I participated) - they just let you shiver your ass off.

Interesting (but I guess it makes sense given that you're dragging however many pounds of hardware up with you) that it seems as if the bike times are not much faster than the running times. The best ever run time was 56:41 and looking at past results for the bike race it looks as if the winning times are in the 50's also.
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#15681 - 07/20/05 03:15 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: GeeVee]
JoeKayak Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Manhattan


sorry..try this link: http://www.bicyclerace.com/

also, i can see how the foot and bike races are similar. i had like times for my hill run and biking the same the day before. i found running easier (really strange for me)...

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#15682 - 07/20/05 04:03 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: GeeVee]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:

I finished in 1:30 and nearly cried when they threw the medal around my neck and a blanket over me.

They give the cyclists a blanket? When you run up it they don't (or didn't on the couple of times I participated) - they just let you shiver your ass off.

Interesting (but I guess it makes sense given that you're dragging however many pounds of hardware up with you) that it seems as if the bike times are not much faster than the running times. The best ever run time was 56:41 and looking at past results for the bike race it looks as if the winning times are in the 50's also.




Last year the runners best was better than the best bike time. It seems to happen with some regularity that the runners times are better than the best bikers times. .....I certainly could have walked faster at some points!


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#15683 - 07/20/05 06:15 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
hartmann Offline
member

Registered: 11/20/99
Posts: 161
Loc: Northfield, VT
Mt. Evans is a great ride. Just make sure to bring something warm to wear. I started the ride on a nice sunny 80 degree day in August. By the time I got to the top, I was in a thundersnowstorm with temperatures in the mid 20s.


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#15684 - 07/20/05 08:39 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: hartmann]
JoeKayak Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 970
Loc: Manhattan
Quote:

Mt. Evans is a great ride. Just make sure to bring something warm to wear. I started the ride on a nice sunny 80 degree day in August. By the time I got to the top, I was in a thundersnowstorm with temperatures in the mid 20s.






wow. thanks for the tip. i plan on bringing my winter riding hat & gloves, wind jacket and maybe some tights for the way down (or the way up if need be)...should be a whole lotta fun....in a painful sort of way.

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#15685 - 07/21/05 03:01 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: JoeKayak]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
And don't forget hydration! I did it the year the guy broke his seat off and rode almost the whole thing with a broken seat post sticking up...

If you've got a poly raincoat, and a thermal that scrunches, bring them.

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#15686 - 07/22/05 02:19 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: edk]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
You people are all quite clearly off your rockers!!!!!!

Hats off to you gentlemen - wish I had the conditioning and motivation to even consider something like cycling MW!
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#15687 - 07/22/05 08:09 PM Re: (Tour de France) Climbing Categories... [Re: irisharehere]
The Lisa Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
Hey, riding with a broken seat post is a good incentive not to sit back and relax!
'Rectum? It damn near killed him.' Flashback to some old joke.
You guys are ambitious, not to mention fit. Enjoy the respective rides. I have yet to tackle Bear Mountain in Harriman State Park, never mind Mt. Wash.
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