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#16397 - 09/26/05 01:48 AM cam suggestions
skillet Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 73
Loc: long island,ny
finally getting into leading this year. need recommendations on what to get in the way of camming devices. most familiar with extracting BD and aliens so i'd like to probably stay with these brands. thanks for any help!
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#16398 - 09/26/05 02:31 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
pink and red tricams
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#16399 - 09/26/05 02:58 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
You really can't go wrong with the # 0.5 to # 3 camalots and the black to yellow (or maybe red) aliens. All solid pieces. And of course you NEED a pink and red tri-cam. If you have extra money after getting all that then I'd try out:

-Those new BD micros that look sweet... But no one has really tried them yet.
-The Trango Max Cams. They have an incredible expansion range.
-Metolius TCU's. I think these work better than aliens (non-offset) in pin scars
-Metolius Power Cams. Solid pieces for less money than BD's and a good way to acquire doubles of some of the key sizes.

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#16400 - 09/26/05 04:31 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
rackrat Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 160
Loc: NYC - UWS
Here's a good basic start...

Green Alien
Yellow Alien
Red Alien
#0.75 Camalot
#1 Camalot
#2 Camalot

Red Tri-Cam
Pink Tri-Cam

Totals around $400

You can extend with a Blue Alien and Blue #3 Camalot. But, for most routes as a beginning leader, you won't need these.

RR
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#16401 - 09/26/05 11:12 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: rackrat]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Stay with the well established manufactures, Black Diamond, Metolius, Wild Country, and you won't go wrong. Since you already use black diamond cams and like them, I'd go that way. Myself, I like (and use extensively) their microcams from 0.3 (the blue micro) to the full range. In the gunks, the blue micro and grey micro will get a bit of use, the purple and green cam jrs will get used extensively as will the red and yellow camalots. Definately get stoppers and get good with them. As you go up in grades, being proficient with them is important.

Tri-cam (warning this is blasphemy) I put in the same catagory (atleast for my climbng style) as cowbells (sorry, hexes), mainly good for beating the S%^& into frozen cracks for mixed climbing, just me.

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#16402 - 09/26/05 12:19 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Skillet, maybe you should post the grades that you intend to start leading. You might get different recommendations on things like cam sizes depending on your target climbs.

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#16403 - 09/26/05 01:03 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: rackrat]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:

Here's a good basic start...

Green Alien
Yellow Alien
Red Alien
#0.75 Camalot
#1 Camalot
#2 Camalot

Red Tri-Cam
Pink Tri-Cam

Totals around $400

You can extend with a Blue Alien and Blue #3 Camalot. But, for most routes as a beginning leader, you won't need these.

RR




huh - I think for TONS of routes you will be glad to have BD (old) #3.5 or (new - C4) #3 double the green and yellow aliens and/or get a grey. Forget the Tri-cams, utterly useless. get a full set of BD stoppers - you'll need them if the rack is light.

Stick with what you know Aliens and BD really are the shit.

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#16404 - 09/26/05 01:56 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
I take it he/she won't be starting on anything higher the 5.10 and black diamond 0.3, 0.4. 0.5, 0.75, 1 and 2.0 along with a full set of stoppers will be a good start in the Gunks, maybe with green and a blue aliens if you are starting in the higher grades (which I don't recommend but I do know a woman who started trad at 5.10c and she's developed into a pretty damn good climber but its better to work your way up through the grades since you have all the time in the world, hey I'm hoping to break into the .13's before I'm 45). I'm not recommending the blue for beginner leaders since the expansion range is deceptively little and its easy to misjudge as a new leader.

As I said, between Black Diamond, Metolius, CCH and Wild Country you won't go wrong, so go with what you like and works for you.

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#16405 - 09/26/05 05:45 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Chas]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
in defense of the tri-cams, I think that for their miniscule weight, it's worth having the pink and red on your rack. I've found many, many places where tey were the only pro worth placing. If nothing else, you can use them at anchors and save the cams for leading.

as for cowbells (hexes), they are by far the most indispensible pieces for long alpine rock routes, IMHO. I would never head into the mountains without them (BD #'s 8, 9, 10).
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#16406 - 09/26/05 06:59 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: nerdom]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
The BEST Cams You could use (or lose) are your Partners...
Nuff Said.

oh but my favorites are my Aliens... All of them! don't forget the Hybrids.

-TROUT
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#16407 - 09/26/05 07:04 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
But a beginner doesn't need hybrid Aliens. They do come in handy much later though....

-Fear

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#16408 - 09/26/05 07:16 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: fear]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
absolutely!
thats why you should use your friends Cams !
OR better yet pick up the ones left laying around at the bottom of the crag and just start sticking those in.


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#16409 - 09/27/05 02:27 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
skillet Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 73
Loc: long island,ny
thanks for all the feedback! i'm breaking in with 5.3,4's and 5's. have only lead 3 climbs so far: beginner's delight, black fly and rhododendron. do i need to double up on any sizes of cams or stoppers. do i need #1 stoppers or other small sized stuff? thanks all!
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#16410 - 09/27/05 11:40 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
For that grade at Gunks, aliens from green to purple, camalots from 1 inch (old red) to 4 inches, maybe double up on the two inch, will work nicely. Purple alien matches 1 inch camalot but is narrower and sometimes fits where camalot doesn't. (The old 4 inch cam will not fit the off-width at the top of Boston.)

There are times where a pink or red tricam is perfect. But you can climb a lot of climbs without even looking at them. Passively they can sometimes fit nicely and better than stoppers. Actively requires considerable care. They really must not wiggle after you set them, although I have seen one fixed tricam that wiggles quite dramatically .

Flame risk Avoid TCUs at the Gunks. Some very good climbers use them, though.

Buy at Rock and Snow (tell them what grades you are looking at). They are experts, know the crag, and will match any legitimate offer you might find in a catalog or on the net.

Enjoy whatever you choose.


Edited by D75 (09/27/05 11:43 AM)

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#16411 - 09/27/05 11:47 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
My suggestion is to get aliens: blue, green, yellow, gray. And BD camalots: purple, green, red, gold. Get BD nuts from 4-13.

That I would consider the basics at the gunks and then you can fill in later as you see what you place the most of. I double up in the purple and green camalots but these days I'd buy the same size aliens instead, for variety. You'll want a bigger cam or two eventually but I don't think they're necessary in the lower grades at the Gunks. I would also suggest some Metolius curve nuts or other differently shaped nut--not a full set but some middle sizes.

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#16412 - 09/27/05 01:23 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: learningtolead]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Quote:

My suggestion is to get aliens: blue, green, yellow, gray. And BD camalots: purple, green, red, gold. Get BD nuts from 4-13.

That I would consider the basics at the gunks and then you can fill in later as you see what you place the most of. I double up in the purple and green camalots but these days I'd buy the same size aliens instead, for variety. You'll want a bigger cam or two eventually but I don't think they're necessary in the lower grades at the Gunks. I would also suggest some Metolius curve nuts or other differently shaped nut--not a full set but some middle sizes.




This is perfect starter rack for the gunks I would only add the newer Brown Alien (if you could find it it doubles around the green camalot) and I definately second either Metolius curved nuts or DMM nuts in the mid ranges.

this, along with 10 - 2ft mammut Slings and a bunch of Biners and your good to go.
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#16413 - 09/27/05 02:12 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: D75]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
I'll bite,

As for Metolius TCU's or 4 cam units, they are just as good as any other (personally I hate them though). Many VERY good climbers use them though. Climbed with Mark Richey when he was down here for AAC Directors meeting (since I know another person on the board and everyone went out climbing). Looking at his rack he has a lot of Metolius cams (though given the way he was protecting the climbs I don't even see why he bothered to carry anything ). I figure, learn what you like and work with it, and just climb A LOT.

As for doubling up (using BD cams as a guide) in the gunks it wouldn't hurt to carry a double of a purple cam jr (BD 0.5) to a yellow cam (2.0) but in the meantime borrow from what your partner has. Definately a double set of nuts. They are light weight and at times become indespensible.

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#16414 - 09/27/05 04:07 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: D75]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
wow, you really don't need all that many cams for the grades stated.

get yourself a green, red, and yellow camalot doubles on the 3 smallest tricams and you are all set with cams. throw on double sets of nuts , (smileys are BD clones and half as expensive) and you have a rack.

you don't need doubles of cams to start out with no matter what anyone says
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#16415 - 09/28/05 02:28 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: CrackBoy]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
depends,

if your routes end at a tree or at a bolted station (blasphemy since they are for rapping, eh) not a big deal, but if you end up on a ledge, and the pieces you need for a safe belay station (and being a new leader you should even be a bit more conservative with your belay stations) is placed somewhere on the route, it sort of sucks.

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#16416 - 09/28/05 03:27 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Chas]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Doubles - May not seem necessary to some. But most new leaders will often appreciated doubles for some of the common sizes found on their climbs.

That said, you can reduce the cost by not purchasing them while you are still climbing with an experienced leader, who of course will share his/hers with you, and may likely even make a recommendation on what to double if you ask before a given route.

When you decide you are experienced enough to lead with a non-leader, you will then know what doubles you have relied on having.

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#16417 - 09/28/05 03:48 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: D75]
Mark Heyman Online   content
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Shouldn’t we be urging most new leaders to carry and place plenty of gear?

Before I made the Gunks my “regular” climbing area, I started leading with a full rack, and soon added mid range doubles specifically to replace cams I had used at belays. I even asked my second to carry them back then! Now climbing at the Gunks, I still carry the gear, but have to admit that it is tempting not to because of the numerous trees that may be used for anchors. I am far more comfortable running it out on easier sections too. But, that was not the case when I started.

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#16418 - 09/28/05 04:06 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Mark Heyman]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
but i ddid suggest lots of gear, i said two sets of nuts.
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#16419 - 09/28/05 10:32 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
You don't need to double up on stoppers; but two sets from different manufacturers work really well. Fer instance, BD stoppers which many seem to like, and then a set of Frost Sentinels. I love my Frosts- can't remember who but one person here said they seem to just get sucked into the rock. I lead Drunkards Delight yesterday, placing just about all my Frosts (and one single cam).

I have small Aliens, small/mid Tech Friends, and large Camelots, so I don't really need to double up, but I still have two green aliens since I use one or two on most climbs (I just seem to have an eye for green alien placements). That said, without the Tech Friends, I'd probably double up on Aliens up to Red.

I started with the "starter" rack of Aliens, a couple of Camelots, and a set of stoppers, and on my first real lead I used most of the cams before I got 20 feet off the ground. Since you're learning to place gear, better borrow gear and double up on all the sizes, and place as much gear as you can. For now, just sew it up. The more gear you place, the faster you'll get used to eyeballing placements and getting the right gear in the first try. As you get more experienced you can slim down your rack, but for now as you're doing easier climbs where you're less likely to fall and weight isn't as big an issue, borrow doubles, carry it all up and place as much as you can.
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#16420 - 09/29/05 12:52 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
It is such a fine balance between WHat gear to buy and What gear to borrow.
So far almost all answers here have been correct. to sum it up "it Depends..."

My suggestion (and I qualify this because I am a known Gear whore) is to buy conservatively.
If you are primarily climbing in the Gunks - up to 5.6 level you will NEED

at least 1 set of BD nuts ,
aliens from green to red,
Camelot's from purple to Blue,
pink to brown Tri-cams ( If you have an EXPERIENCED partner to show you how to properly place them)
Enough 2ft slings w/ biners and anchor gear.

everything else should be borrowed (shared) as stated earlier.

I am a Proud Sponsor of Rock and Snow!
Buy from them!
NOW!

-Trout

and stay away from specialty gear and shiny magical stuff it will consume you and leave you poor and helpless!

I know for I am a gear whore!
and my name is Karl!

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www.genxclimbing.com

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#16421 - 09/29/05 02:20 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: CrackBoy]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:

wow, you really don't need all that many cams for the grades stated.

get yourself a green, red, and yellow camalot doubles on the 3 smallest tricams and you are all set with cams. throw on double sets of nuts , (smileys are BD clones and half as expensive) and you have a rack.

you don't need doubles of cams to start out with no matter what anyone says




That might be a good beginning rack for a sick hard climber like you whose best protection is how they climb.... But to me that rack sounds like a recipe for disaster to the kind of new leader I'm seeing at hte crag.

highly dependant on cams of any / all sizes. Doubles of course aren't needed - who even *needs* cams, but having 2 of a the yellow alien and the red-gold camalot... hell yeah!

doubles on the three smallest tri-cam ???? that's just 'f'in wierd You won't double up on cams that find their way into TONS of placements on HUNDREDS of routes, but you'll double up tricams? man if you need to save money that bad do like Architect says.

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#16422 - 09/29/05 02:42 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
doubles on the three smallest tri-cam ???? that's just 'f'in wierd

I have doubles on pink and red, and one brown.
(I also have a coupla in the next bigger sizes, but they are gathering dust in my spare gear bag.)
I have many times placed both pinks, or both reds, or even all 4, on a given route.

So I'm f'n wierd. We knew that.

They effectively double up yer mid to large stoppers, AND also yer medium cams, from say yellow to orange Alien.
And of course often go where nothing else will.

For a smidge more than the cost and weight of ONE extra cam, you can have FIVE Tricams.

Thereby giving you (particularly a new leader who might want more gear on hand, without being loaded down like a Sherpa) LOTS more options and flexibility in placements.

And more booty opportunities for us when they "can't clean them".
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#16423 - 09/29/05 02:51 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: MurphysLaw]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
2 of every BD cam and Alien and you'll be set
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#16424 - 09/29/05 02:53 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
Bolt_Skytop Offline
addict

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 422
Loc: New Paltz, New York
This is a tad pricey but complete:
Green, yellow, gray, and red aliens
Purple, green, red, gold, blue Camelot’s
ABC Huecos
Pink, red, brown tricams

The blue Camelot is key on easier climbs. These climbs are often easy because the horizontals are bigger and therefore require bigger cams. Don't fuck with blue or black aliens for now they are precision tools and can be dangerous if not placed exactly. This precision comes with practice.
I will put in another vote for Rock and Snow. They are knowledgeable, friendly, and a great local resource. Since they will match Internet prices there is no reason not to support them.

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#16425 - 09/29/05 02:58 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: MurphysLaw]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
A word for the Tri cam discussion.
As of this coming weekend, I will have finished EVERY 5.5 pitch in the trapps* and I have yet to need a tri cam.
They are an inexpensive and solid piece of Pro if used carefully and properly but it is much more secure to place a good Cam.
I gave all of my tricams away this year because I have not used them in over 2 seasons.



* I have a new beginning climbing partner so to make it fun for me as well as her we decided to do this from Black Fly to Rangers Revenge.
Lots of good stuff I probably never would have got on otherwise.
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#16426 - 09/29/05 03:27 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
As of this coming weekend, I will have finished EVERY 5.5 pitch in the trapps* and I have yet to need a tri cam

Frankly, you could have finished EVERY 5.5 in the Trapps and not needed a CAM either.

And have been a better leader for it.
(I must be channeling RG here, I'm feeling quite retro-grouchy at the moment )

All of those routes can be, and have been, and were for years, led w/ nuts and hexes ONLY.
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#16427 - 09/29/05 03:28 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

A word for the Tri cam discussion.
As of this coming weekend, I will have finished EVERY 5.5 pitch in the trapps* and I have yet to need a tri cam. ...
I gave all of my tricams away this year because I have not used them in over 2 seasons.
* blah blah.




Didn't need them. Didn't have them. Hmm. So not having one, never found place for one
Of course, (since you are spraying and have not yet finished anyway), I guess one could solo all those routes and say you don't need no stinkin' cams. or passive pro either.

There are places where tricams work and cams don't. Saw one a couple weeks ago in those grades. Of course, I didn't need it since it was not on my rack at the time . But I sure would have slotted it in instead of running it out, had it been there.

BTW. Analyzing post hoc is not the problem that the new leader faces. He needs to rack for what he might encounter on the as yet unknown pro opportunities. So the fact that afterwards he finds pieces on his rack that he did not use is evidence that they were not needed (that time). But the routes don't have tape on them. So when he does a route, he could do it differently from you, and he could even do it differently the second time. Or he might do it differently depending on what gear he has.

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#16428 - 09/29/05 03:37 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: D75]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
absolutely

I think I missed my own point...
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www.genxclimbing.com

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#16429 - 09/29/05 04:34 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
well you shouldn't be doing a route as a begining leader if you can't climb your way out of trouble.


maybe i am a sick hard climber™ but i make it a point to not push both gear and difficulty at the same time. this is a good rule of thumb for someone who is just starting out.

doubles on tricams..hell yea, i carry that even out here where everyone carries all cams. its like carrying two piece for the price of 1/5th a cam as Murph pointed out. just because you either a) hate them or b) suck at placing/cleaning em doesn't deny their versatility. and i think a new leader should be proficient in his/her nutcraft, it will help them out when pushing harder grades

i never climbed with a double set of cams at the gunks, yes i added several cams to my rack as i progressed (and could afford them) but the rack i suggested and maybe a red alien got me up to at least 5.7 and i never felt like i needed more.

i guess that does make me a sick hard climber™
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#16430 - 09/29/05 04:43 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: CrackBoy]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Quote:

The blue Camelot is key on easier climbs.


I've been thinking the same thing this whole thread. For easy routes, I think the #3 is more important than the green Alien.

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#16431 - 09/29/05 05:43 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: MurphysLaw]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Quote:

I must be channeling RG here, I'm feeling quite retro-grouchy at the moment




You want retro-grouchage? I'll give you retro-grouchage:

Gunks rack:

short -thin
short-medium
short-thick
long-thin
long-medium
long-thick
1/2" angle
5/8" angle
3/4" angle, maybe two.
1" angle, maybe also 1.25" angle
1.5" angle

Now that's a gunks rack. Dig it.

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#16432 - 09/29/05 05:46 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: rg@ofmc]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Quote:

Quote:

I must be channeling RG here, I'm feeling quite retro-grouchy at the moment




You want retro-grouchage? I'll give you retro-grouchage:

Gunks rack:

short -thin
short-medium
short-thick
long-thin
long-medium
long-thick
1/2" angle
5/8" angle
3/4" angle, maybe two.
1" angle, maybe also 1.25" angle
1.5" angle

Now that's a gunks rack. Dig it.




Yeah but how do you color code those to your biners?

And what about rope?

I don't like angles so much because they are not shinny enough!
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#16433 - 09/29/05 05:55 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
browndog2 Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 767
Loc: livin' on the edge
Ting!
Ting!
Ting!
Tangg!
Tungg!
TUNG!
Clip. Clip.
Climb, climb, climb.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

see how far ya get making those noises in the Trapps without some guy pecking at you with a 30.06. But you will feel retro(grouchy).
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(not that there's anything wrong with that...sorta)

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#16434 - 09/29/05 07:44 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: MurphysLaw]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:



And of course often go where nothing else will.

For a smidge more than the cost and weight of ONE extra cam, you can have FIVE Tricams.





You are wierd....



we did all know that, but it's good to see you accept yourself

Anyway - I don't claim to climb to have climbed everything, but I cant think of one single instance -- not one -- not even when I carried 2 pinks, one red, and one brown -- where the only think I could have placed was a tri-cam.

From G to R I've never had to skip a placement becuase a tri-cam would only go.

That said - I really am being to hard on the little guys, They work, they are cheap, they hold..... well if you place them right.

Given the choice -- 5 tri-cams OR 1 CAM. SOme other might jump on the TC, but I'd have to think about that one.

My rack is divided into STAPEL and SPECIALITY

STAPELS are
Camalots: .5, .75, 1, 2, 3.5
Aliens: Blue, 2 green, 2 yellow, grey, red
Nuts: 1 set BD stoppers double 5,6 & 8 - Astro nuts - Wallnuts 9 & 10 1 set Wild Country superllights (single wire)

Specialty is
Alien hybrids
micro-camalots
Tri-cams
HB off-sets
CAMALOTS 3, 4

Mix and match, have fun deciding, but so far this season I have placed ONE tri-cam (brown on the belay at Doubleisima) That's just me. My pink Tri-cam is still stained with blood from the last time I "cleaned it" as I fell past it.

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#16435 - 09/29/05 08:03 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Quote:

I cant think of one single instance -- not one -- not even when I carried 2 pinks, one red, and one brown -- where the only think I could have placed was a tri-cam.


Dude, you need to learn to place tricams. They definitely go where nothing else will in pockets and other not-quite-a-cam, not-quite-a-nut spots.

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#16436 - 09/29/05 08:07 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: CrackBoy]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:

maybe i am a sick hard climber™ but i make it a point to not push both gear and difficulty at the same time. this is a good rule of thumb for someone who is just starting out.





Seems like a good point for NOT carrying a tri-cam. IMO it is one tricky piece to place well, requires practice, and having cleaned them some.

Now if a new leader hasn't the experiance with them then obviously they dont belong on that rack right?

Should a new leader NOT lead until they know how to place a tri-cam? I wouldn't say so.

Anyway, some of what you said sounded like an indictment and a little out of context,my paranoia might having me reading a little too much into it - but you wouldn't do that Mitch. right? Mitch?

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#16437 - 09/29/05 08:11 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Um, you do sound a little overwrought.

Tricams are an inexpensive and lightweight alternative to carrying a lot of extra cams and they're a standard part of most Gunks racks. If you're going to climb at the Gunks, you should learn to place tricams and the way to learn to place them is to place them and the time to do that is early on when you're not planning on falling on any of that gear anyway, right?

There's no secret to them. It's just a matter of learning to fiddle. I think it's just as easy to tell a good tricam from a bad as it is any other piece of gear. Nice to have a mentor to confirm your judgements and all that, but let's not make tricams out to be an advanced technique.

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#16438 - 09/29/05 08:21 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: dalguard]
edk Offline
addict

Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 441
Loc: allentown, NJ
Quote:

Um, you do sound a little overwrought.

Tricams are an inexpensive and lightweight alternative to carrying a lot of extra cams and they're a standard part of most Gunks racks. If you're going to climb at the Gunks, you should learn to place tricams and the way to learn to place them is to place them and the time to do that is early on when you're not planning on falling on any of that gear anyway, right?

There's no secret to them. It's just a matter of learning to fiddle. I think it's just as easy to tell a good tricam from a bad as it is any other piece of gear. Nice to have a mentor to confirm your judgements and all that, but let's not make tricams out to be an advanced technique.




OK I give!!! <Ed raises right hand>Tri-Cams are the best little pieces of gear!! I will begin carrying them Next time I climb, and practice placing them from the good stances, while follwing, and during rainy days at the Uberfall.</ed meekly lowers it>

Jeez, I didn't think there was a secret to them, we just have a little... history. I don't like them, but I'll change, I will -- I'll try! I swear!!!

The first person to invent a way to impart tone and emotion (smiley faces dont count) in web boards and email will be richer than Bill Gates.

I go on record : I did not mean to offend the legions of Tri-cam lovers, nor did I want to be thought of a poor gunks citizen and bad gear dude for speaking ill of them.

I need that RBL road trip and Jameson. NOW!

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#16439 - 09/30/05 02:20 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
I placed a tri cam for the 1st time in about a year and 1/2. And you know what? Its now fixed! Thank god, now I only have 2 more friggin pink ones to go before I'm clean of all my tri-cams

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#16440 - 09/30/05 03:43 AM Re: cam suggestions [Re: skillet]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
You do not need to go as big as the #3 Camalot. I was as happy as a pig in shit for my first two years of leading with biggest cam being #2 (bought bigger for a trip out west). But that brings me to another point - I *did* use large hexes, and found them very useful. Still do, actually. Climbs everywhere under 5.8 tend to have a lot of broken rock and big cracks in them, and this is where hexes excel. With that said, here's the perfect rack I'd recommend for a beginning leader at the Gunks:

- green, yellow, red aliens.
- either orange alien or purple camalot - your choice.
- green, red, yellow camalots.

No doubles in cams.

- one and a half sets of nuts - doubling the small end. Starting at BD #4. But don't buy the BD ones, buy the Smileys, or whatever they're called now - they're identical to the BDs except cheaper.

-pink, red, brown tricams. One each is plenty to start.

- largest five hexes, slung on high-tech cord.

Have fun!

GO

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#16441 - 09/30/05 02:05 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: edk]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Quote:



OK I give!!! <Ed raises right hand>Tri-Cams are the best little pieces of gear!! I will begin carrying them Next time I climb, and practice placing them from the good stances, while follwing, and during rainy days at the Uberfall.</ed meekly lowers it>

Jeez, I didn't think there was a secret to them, we just have a little... history. I don't like them, but I'll change, I will -- I'll try! I swear!!!





Note...
Ed's History came about as close as one could say to him not having any more history - and a carry out and a lot of surgery. his fall was made worse because of a pink tri-cam.

he may not want to make it into a big deal, But it is! and His experience with them makes me shut up and listen.
(Im not saying that anyone else should)

When It comes to gear, I am under the opinion that no matter how wonderful it places, no matter how wonderful it cleans and no matter how super light and shinny it is, If it has a history for taking falls either good or bad I'll base my decisions on that.
second comes my own experiences with the piece or something similar,
then placement , then cost, then shinny factor (OK, sometimes shinny factor comes before cost)

Tri cams can be good pieces but I do not feel that they are a beginner leader rack worthy.
I feel they should definitely be considered as secondary gear so you can save your cams for a later time.

And to make this thread even more flammable I am going to toss Hexes in with tri cams as well.

we have better and safer overall technology, it cost more but your life is worth it.

Do not disregard tri cams and hexes all together, just be damn sure you know they are bomber placements before getting sketchy over them!
and getting sketchy over any gear is something I would not recommend to a new leader.

I think I am missing my own point again. sorry I spent the night in the Vet hospital cuz my cat took a whipper out my bedroom window last night!

-Trout


_________________________
-Karl - Looking for a clucking partner
www.genxclimbing.com

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#16442 - 09/30/05 02:10 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: GOclimb]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
Gotta second (third, fourth?) the #3 Camalot. Indispensible piece for the 5.6 and under leader, IMHO. Also second the Hex recommendation. Bomber pieces without the walking/extended runners requirements of many cam placements (sure, a year or two from now, you'll never use them - unless you plan on doing long alpine rock routes, where they're the tits). I started out with BD Camalots .5 - #3, BD Hexes 4-10, and Wallnuts 1-10. Didn't add Aliens for a couple years. If money is an issue, Camalots are a great way to go, because they just have a greater range than other cams. But if money's not an issue, then by all means, buy those Aliens! They will become the most frequently placed cams on your rack. I'm also in the "beginning leaders should avoid small - black, blue, green - Alien placements" school -- a beginner just shouldn't be relying on small cam placements to save his/her ass.

Saw a beginning/novice leader lead V-3 once with NOTHING but tri-cams. It was pretty impressive.
_________________________
we're all living proof that nothing lasts

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#16443 - 09/30/05 02:28 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: nerdom]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Like Architect, I too do not use tricams because of the "ed-factor"
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

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#16444 - 09/30/05 02:31 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: d-elvis]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I don't know guys. There's nothing inherently safer or better about a cam. The safest piece is the piece that fits the placement best. If you have the attitude that cam=safe, you're going to be wrong sometimes and that's dangerous. A new leader should learn to place all gear, not learn to plug in a cam whenever he's sketched, like cams are magic.

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#16445 - 09/30/05 02:43 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

.... his fall was made worse because of a pink tri-cam. -Trout



Worse than what? Worse than if he had not placed it? Likely not. Worse than he expected. Likely yes, since he probably expected the piece to stay in place. How many people have never placed a piece of protection that came out [edited to correct here], even without a fall?

If he could have placed something else there that would have held, then it might be considered an error in judgment. (I suspect that if the placement would have supported an SLCD, then an SLCD would have been used - just a guess.) If he had placed an SLCD in the same spot and it failed, would he have abandoned the use of cams, or that particular cam?

Any piece can be placed poorly. Even pieces that are optimally placed have some probability of failure - hardware, rock, or movement caused by climbing changes it unseen. I have seen stoppers and cams placed by highly skilled and experienced climbers fall after a placement.

If one used the "this piece failed for me or someone else argument" then we would all quit climbing or just solo.


Edited by D75 (09/30/05 03:00 PM)

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#16446 - 09/30/05 02:52 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: dalguard]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
yep

but there is a bit of thread drift here.
the original post was for which pieces to buy first
tricams IMO do not make my first round of purchasing list*.
I think that is my point I am so desperately trying to hold onto .

* note: that is, if I were to do it again

_________________________
-Karl - Looking for a clucking partner
www.genxclimbing.com

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#16447 - 09/30/05 03:13 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Architect]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
So, it's better to wait until you are climbing harder, and/or really get into the shit, before you start practicing w/ placing tricams?
Sorry guys. I'm not buying it.

Ed, I feel your pain (almost literally, since I've taken a ride that required surgery to fix afterwards).

BUT - there is no bad gear. There are only bad placements.

The gear didn't fail. The placement did.

When I decked, I pulled a green alien. Did I subsequently stop placing green aliens? Are YOU going to stop placing green aliens now?
It was pilot error, a poor placement. (and I knew it, and I was trying to back it up w/ something better when I slipped).


Going back to the original topic, I suggest that, BEFORE you start doubling up on ANY size cams, that you first get at least one set of pink-brown tricams.
.

They are lighter, cheaper, and more versatile than any cam. The first 2 points are not subject to debate.
Hence, they are good to get in the early rack-building stages, IMHO. YMMV, feel free to differ.

Place 'em from the good stances, or use 'em at belays, and 'save' your cams for when you might need gear in a hurry.
_________________________
"Flailing?" "Flail on!"

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#16448 - 09/30/05 03:28 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: MurphysLaw]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
personally, i hate tricams.

Tricams are a visceral issue, and the strong personal opinions of the people on this board are something that the OP will come to harbor in one direction or another over time.

I suggest walking into Rock and Snow and asking the guys there for assistance. They are super nice, knowledgable and more than happy to deal with gearheads. Plus if you buy a bunch, you get a free one with their cam card program (if its still on...)

Based on Murphy's comments though, i offer the following JOKE of a gear list:

double black aliens. Better learn to use them now.
double 00 metolius's. See above, you want to be comfortable with them before you get on the 10s and 11s that you'll need them on.
HB bronze offsets. Forget about the #6, you want the #3,4 and maybe a 5.
a grabbag of about 20 nuts. DMM Peanuts are great, then some of the 1-4 WC rocks, or the 1-5 BD nuts. You don't need nuts over #7, they're too big to place anywhere.
A double set of the alien offsets.
Two red camalots for Stannards Roof.
A gold camalot.
A couple of locking biners. I prefer Petzl William Screw Locks cause they're really big.
Find some camp sliding nuts. You'd better learn how to use them now. Ask somebody to show you how to modify them with shrink wrap so they don't stick on crystals.
Maybe a red, and an orange metolius cam just in case you're climbing easier than 5.9.

That should be all you need for that first rack. NOT.

Look: what you like is intensely personal. It all works if it's got a CE stamp or certification, and you will probably be better off with what you like. Shoot, I even have friends who like tricams! And those HB injector trigger cams!

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#16449 - 09/30/05 03:52 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: crackers]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
LOL!!!!

PS - apparently HB Offsets are on the endangered species list, so get 'em now if ya can find 'em.
(They are the shizzit. As always, everybody else is free to disagree w/ me And NO, a new leader does not need them)
The #5 is my wubbie. I have 2 of them.

Crackie - you forgot the RP's in the nut selection.
The smaller the better.
Maybe some of the smallest Trango brassies too.
_________________________
"Flailing?" "Flail on!"

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#16450 - 09/30/05 04:54 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: MurphysLaw]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Ya I like that idea myself, a new leader should get used to placing #1 to #3 Rp's AND the following:

Convincing yourself that it will all hold (believing in Voodoo helps)
Climbing waaaaay above it while fighting the persistent urge to puyke violently
and bring a change of shorts to change outta once ya flop on to the GT ledge after said crux with an RP nest way below.

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#16451 - 09/30/05 04:55 PM HB offsets [Re: MurphysLaw]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
actually HB won't be so endangered. DM bought the cast from HB so they are going to start making them pretty soon


i carry the offsets on everything now. if i could go back in time before i would probably uy a set of aluminum offsets and the smileys for my two sets of nuts.
_________________________
Just Call me Mr. Enthusiasm

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#16452 - 09/30/05 05:42 PM Re: cam suggestions [Re: Smike]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
It's really not a good analogy. You learn how to place microcams and brass nuts by placing larger cams and larger nuts. You wait before buying them because easier climbs don't need them and because there's less margin for error in placing them.

I have no issue with experienced leaders who've decided not to carry tricams. I don't carry hexes. But I do understand how they work and that they do work and that sometimes they work better than any other alternative. I'd never tell a new leader not to try them.

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#16453 - 09/30/05 05:58 PM re: cam suggestions [Re: CrackBoy]
minbo Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 24
Tricams, hexes, nuts aside, as he specificly requested info on cams...

You specified lead level, but not budget and not what gear your climbing partners may have which is why you are getting the kitchen sink recommended to you.

For your lead level you don't need microcams. They are not as strong and you don't need them for your lead level, especially as a beginning leader who probably won't go on anything sparser than a PG or two. No black alien, no blue camalot C4, no purple green or silver zero.

You also don't really NEED large cams for leads on you level, though at times they can be very nice to have. I would get them later if you have to pace purchases.

My rack for up to 5.8 leads in the Gunks is:

Double blue, green, yellow, red Aliens
Single orange, purple, white Aliens
One set of Smily nuts

For me, that has been more than enough pro for a single pitch. When I started I only carried single blue and red Aliens, and a second set of nuts. I found the blue and red alien useful enough to double them up all the time and that I didn't need the second set of nuts.

I HAVE a lot more cams (enough aliens that with what I carry I can make almost four full sets, the 3 larger camalots, full set of WC Zeros and more), another set of nuts, a set of hexes, a set and a half of tricams, and some big bros, but for leading in the Gunks at my level I don't need them and I don't think that you will for your lead level either. I have wished on occasion that I had carried some larger cams, hexes or some o fthe smaller big bros for anchor building on GT ledge, but have managed fine so far without them.

I am currently contemplating changing my rack from doubles of the blue, green, yellow and red aliens to singles of those, getting a single purple Max cam and carrying extra nuts and tricams instead, but I'm not yet sold on the Max cams such that I'm chomping at the bit to trust my life to one.

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