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#16626 - 10/17/05 02:10 AM metolius PAS
skillet Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 73
Loc: long island,ny
(personal anchor system). anyone use this system? feedback? thanks!
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#16627 - 10/17/05 02:42 AM Re: metolius PAS [Re: skillet]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I use it. I like it. It's a bit bulky, but the flexibility of its length is nice.

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#16628 - 10/17/05 08:57 AM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Julie]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
I've thought about it, but for trad I usually just clip both ropes to the anchor so there's not much need for another backup. I do have a long sling girth hitched to my belay loop, but for the most part I just use the ropes.

When climbing sport, I've thought it might be useful, but clipping the rope and a nylon sling as a backup work just fine. The 48" sling can easily be doubled or tripled to give you three easy lengths; if you just have to be a few more inches one way or another, the PAS would give you a bit more range. But I don't think that flexibility is really worth $20 more than a nylon sling, especially when it's so bulky.

I've seen other pas-like devices at Rumney that were various colors, so they probably weren't Metolius but I didn't get a chance to ask who made them.

I thought I saw a new Metolius PAS that uses thinner webbing two weeks ago at EMS, but I was in a rush so I didn't get to check it out. I'm overseas on business so I can't confirm it. Not too much thinner, just enough to notice it looked a bit different.

If Mammut came out with one using the 8mm floss (or the new 6mm stuff) I'd be very tempted to buy it. But even with the new design I think the Metolius PAS is too bulky.
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#16629 - 10/17/05 12:13 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: quanto_the_mad]
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
I'd buy it if they cut the price in half.

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#16630 - 10/17/05 12:36 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: intrepid02]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Too many loops to get gear or body parts caught in. The BD daisy chain works better for me when I know I'll be doing a lot of anchor work. otherwise I just girth hitch my lead line to two lockers on the chains.
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#16631 - 10/17/05 01:52 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Architect]
dalguard Offline
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I prefer the daisy I used to use but my partners prefer the PAS for its full strength. The PAS is bulkier and not as flexible (not as many loops) compared to a daisy but I can use it as my sole connection to the anchor and not worry about the strength issue.

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#16632 - 10/17/05 01:56 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
I use it, #1 reason is the full strength loops
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#16633 - 10/17/05 02:22 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Architect]
Mike Rawdon Offline

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Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

Too many loops to get gear or body parts caught in. The BD daisy chain works better for me when I know I'll be doing a lot of anchor work. otherwise I just girth hitch my lead line to two lockers on the chains.





Don't you mean "clove hitch"? Pulling one end of a girth hitch will usually make it slip. In a fall I would expect this to glaze the sheath.

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#16634 - 10/17/05 03:20 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Yep
Thats what I get fro posting pre coffee.
I think I was thinking about the daisy being girthed to my belay loop thanks Mike.

,,,
c\_/

coffees done!
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#16635 - 10/17/05 04:20 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Clipping in (or even making the belay) with the rope is nice, but only if you're swinging leads. If you're not leading the next pitch, or if you're setting up to rap, you'll have to tie in to the anchor with some kind of sling.

I'd love to see a dyneema PAS, too.

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#16636 - 10/17/05 05:08 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Julie]
dalguard Offline
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Clipping in with the rope is also less than ideal if you're rapping down from that anchor and it's useless for anchoring in on sucessive raps. I do love having a daisy/PAS. I understand that they're optional but I'm so quick going clip, clip. Watching my partner fiddle with this that or the other method, depending on circumstances and available gear, is painful at times.

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#16637 - 10/17/05 05:43 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Architect Offline
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Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Both Julie and Dalguard have valid points (though I think Julie meant my way is a hassle when you lead every pitch) . it goes to show that these devices are more useful depending on your styles of climbing. When i know I'll be mucking around on multiple misc. anchors, I'll take along my daisy chain. If I can help it I don't. I always have 2 24" slings with lockers on them to hook into the anchor if needed. I have not found a very usefully and out of the way place to keep these "anchor systems" when I am leading.

For GUNKS craggin' I think they are not necessary.
for long multi-pitch climbing -yeah its worth the hassle.

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#16638 - 10/17/05 06:27 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Architect]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I've taken to carrying a daisy (actually the PAS) on most climbs, although the advantages are minor in any case and mostly of use on long routes.

One advantage on long routes is that the leader can clip the first anchor with the daisy and call off belay, giving the second a head start on dismantling their anchor while the leader continues to set up the next anchor. (The advantage of the PAS is that the daisy can become part of the final anchor if that is convenient.) The second, clipped with a daisy, can strip all but one anchor point while the leader is getting ready. Then when the second arrives at the stance, they immediately clip in with the daisy, freeing the belayer to help hand over gear for the next lead and make whatever adjustments in their belay are necessary. Over many pitches, this process can save some time.

Rappelling advantages are obvious, although something similar can be cobbled together with slings. These are far less adjustable, which may or may not matter much.

There are some other times when it is helpful to have a daisy. One that I find useful is in cleaning difficult gear. You place another piece, hang from the daisy, and use both hands on the problem piece. With todays long leads, it can be very trying to do this with tension from the belayer because of the ground lost to rope stretch, and communicating with the belayer can itself be problematic.

If, heaven forbid, you have to prussik up the rope for some reason, its an emergency, and having the daisy attached and ready to go is a tremendous help. Sometimes, in this situation, you may not have enough slings to substitute for the daisy, and you aren't going to have the adjustment ability that can make prussiking tolerable.

Finally, every now and then, even when crag climbing, you have to aid something, and having an attached daisy ready to go makes life a whole lot easier, especially if you don't have enough slings available when the need arises.

So for me, the accumulation of minor advantages just tips the scale in favor of carrying a daisy most of the time.

As for the PAS, the strength makes it possible to incorporate it into the anchor, and it also means that if you actually fall on the thing, say at a rappel station, you have a higher degree of confidence it will hold. (However, the forces involved for even short falls are enormous---I don't recommend putting it to the test, because some other piece of gear may well not be up to the task.)

Drawbacks of the PAS are that it is less adjustable than a standard daisy (because the loops are bigger), it is heavier and bulkier, and, in my opinion, it is too short (I'd like to see at least one more loop).

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#16639 - 10/17/05 07:21 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
I used daisys before the PAS was available. I use a PAS now for the extra security. Two Things I do with a PAS that have not been mentioned.

Tie my self off long to a “distant” anchor. Tie a butterfly in the rope near me and use the PAS to get the length exactly right for belay duty.

Extend a rappel device a short distance. This is neater and simpler than separate slings.

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#16640 - 10/17/05 07:58 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

If Mammut came out with one using the 8mm floss (or the new 6mm stuff) I'd be very tempted to buy it.




So why not put a 4 foot Mummut skinnysling on your harness and put an overhand knot in it every 4-6 inches? Yes, the knots may SLIDE, that stuff being slippery, but it's not going to blow up on you.

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#16641 - 10/17/05 08:47 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: mworking]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Extend a rappel device a short distance. This is neater and simpler than separate slings.
Hey - good idea - thanks!

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#16642 - 10/17/05 09:03 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I think you'd need to start with a sling longer than 4 feet. The knots eat up length.

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#16643 - 10/17/05 10:23 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

I think you'd need to start with a sling longer than 4 feet. The knots eat up length.




OK, so I'm a geek. I just measured this. A not-too-neatly dressed OH knot uses up just under 2.5 inches of Mammut sling. So a triple length sling might be best. Assuming they make such a beast.

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#16644 - 10/17/05 11:46 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Quote:

Quote:

If Mammut came out with one using the 8mm floss (or the new 6mm stuff) I'd be very tempted to buy it.




So why not put a 4 foot Mummut skinnysling on your harness and put an overhand knot in it every 4-6 inches? Yes, the knots may SLIDE, that stuff being slippery, but it's not going to blow up on you.




Did this last time out when I realized I forgot to bring a second daisy for my second. Just a couple of knots; worked just fine.

I always take a daisy - mostly out of habit I think. Generally use it to go ahead and clip into the first piece of an anchor and get off belay before going ahead and fixing up everything else; seems to save a bit of time (think this is what Mike was mentioning up above?)

Also, somewhat unrelated: Sure, you don't clip two loops of a daisy because the stitching between is not rated full strength and you don't want it to come undone and leave your biner attached to nothing - but, ignoring the static nature of the daisy and the fact that you wouldn't want to dynamically load it like you would should a loop fail - you should be able to avoid this problem by girthhitching your biner to the end of the daisy, no?
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#16645 - 10/18/05 12:25 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
I’m not saying don’t do it, or it won’t work, but I girth my PAS to the same spot on my harness every time climb. Then I tie in tight with it and shift around in my harness while belaying. Seems to me a skinny sling is going to create a lot more wear than the PAS which I bet was made bulky specifically to avoid wear issues, and the extra liability that might result.

If you just use it as a safety and don’t weight it, then thin material won’t make much of a difference. But, then you really aren’t using for all the things it is good for and you might as well just use your regular slings as many people do.

That said Mikes right, no-one has to make a skinny PAS. Just do it yourself the knots will be pretty small. Use a two foot and four footer together

And yes Aya girth hitching both ends of a daisy one to a harness, and the other to a safety biner should be “safe”; a good idea I never thought of.

Added: I meant with respect clipping two loops (a no-no) without the girth hitch. I also intentionally put quotes around safe, see Dawns post below.
If you don’t use the loops then you might as well have used a sling, and I don’t know whether falling directly on the end is better than ripping stitches on the way.
Guess I’ll just stay with a PAS.


Edited by mworking (10/18/05 01:37 PM)

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#16646 - 10/18/05 12:32 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Quote:

Also, somewhat unrelated: Sure, you don't clip two loops of a daisy because the stitching between is not rated full strength and you don't want it to come undone and leave your biner attached to nothing - but, ignoring the static nature of the daisy and the fact that you wouldn't want to dynamically load it like you would should a loop fail - you should be able to avoid this problem by girthhitching your biner to the end of the daisy, no?




If you clip the Daisy correctly (not thru two loops but only one) then fall (ouch!) you would possibly pull thru the loop (2kn per loop) then shock load the remaining (how much force would that be?) until you pulled to the end which takes 22 Kn. the more loops the more "screamers" you have between you and the end. A lot of people try and tell me this is a bad thing but I like the fact that if I fell on my daisy from say 2 ft above the anchor and generated more the 2 Kns I wouldn't take the full force on my harness and that I might pull a loop or two much like a screamer would. I should test this out. anyways as in all things - don't trust your life to just one (for very long) connection.
(I heart ())
need more coffee....
,,,
c\~/


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#16647 - 10/18/05 01:00 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Architect]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Story from the experts is that the pockets ripping weakens the sling itself, thus making the entire thing subject to failure, not just subject to lengthening. You don't want to rip pockets.

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#16648 - 10/18/05 02:41 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

Story from the experts is that the pockets ripping weakens the sling itself, thus making the entire thing subject to failure, not just subject to lengthening. You don't want to rip pockets.




Yes, I believe it was BD who reported that sometimes the chain fails before the end is reached.

As for girth hitching the biner to the end, why would you do that?? A GH on a biner is also a ring bend. Work a little slack into it and the biner falls out! Just clip the end; it's stronger too (I believe).

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#16649 - 10/18/05 03:29 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Mike, that is an interesting observation.
Of course you could make the same argument for girth hitching the harness. If you pull enough slack (sling is long enough) you could step through it and pull it out. I do think the original suggestion assumed the the biner mentioned was attached not only to the end of the daisy, but to something too big for the loose ends to go around (like maybe the earth).
OK, I guess even if the biner were attached to the earth, if it is long enough you could pull enough slack to step through it and have it fall out.

Not that I disagree that it is probably better just to clip the loop. I suppose if the manufacturer of daisy chains engineered the stitching to be a screamer, they would charge more and change their marketing.

Aside (and a different thread). You never did answer the question for discussion purposes on the outward forces exerted by a stopper behind a flake.

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#16650 - 10/18/05 09:19 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: D75]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Quote:

You never did answer the question for discussion purposes on the outward forces exerted by a stopper behind a flake.




On the run here, but I think the chock exerts a normal force on each wall of the crack of F/(2sin a), where F is the load and a is the chock angle, measured from the vertical. (I'm assuming a straight-sided chock and crack perfectly matched to it, of course.)

This will, in general, be less than what you get with a cam. For example, in order for the normal force on one wall to be double the load, you'd need a chock angle around 14 degrees. I don't know what the actual angles are, but I think they're less than 14 degrees for most sizes.

As for girth-hitching the biner, I don't understand the benefit.

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#16651 - 10/18/05 09:48 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Quote:

Quote:

Story from the experts is that the pockets ripping weakens the sling itself, thus making the entire thing subject to failure, not just subject to lengthening. You don't want to rip pockets.




Yes, I believe it was BD who reported that sometimes the chain fails before the end is reached.

As for girth hitching the biner to the end, why would you do that?? A GH on a biner is also a ring bend. Work a little slack into it and the biner falls out! Just clip the end; it's stronger too (I believe).




Well, I'm not exactly sure how it would fall out when it's clipped in to something (also the only scenario where I could potentially rip pockets on a daisy, and where my life is presumably in danger if it does fall off...)

That aside, the reason I would girth hitch the biner to the end - it's just quicker (and less likely that I'll drop the biner) when I get to an anchor for me to adjust the length of the daisy. Rather than removing the biner from the daisy and reattaching it to the loop I want, it is somewhat quicker (and requires lots less dexterity) to just open the gate, leave it clipped to the end of the daisy, and clip it through a loop and the anchor. I can do that with one hand. I have trouble unclipping from the end of the daisy and reclipping through a loop with one hand. As a person who is prone to dropping stuff (don't climb under me...), this is really helpful.

Yes, ripping pockets is bad - but this is true whether the biner is girth hitched to the end of the daisy or is clipped solely through the daisy, no? If there is daisy failure, there is daisy failure.
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#16652 - 10/18/05 10:03 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
dalguard Offline
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
So use the PAS and stop worrying about it. The pockets on the PAS are independent* so you can clip two at a time if you want. OTOH, there are way fewer of them.

*depending on how you look at it. If you were clipped to two pockets and the one farthest away from you blew somehow, you'd still be clipped in. However, if you were clipped to any number of pockets and the one closest to you blew, then the remainder of the PAS would no longer be attached to you and therefore worthless


Edited by dalguard (10/18/05 10:08 PM)

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#16653 - 10/18/05 11:10 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Who's worrying? I was just checking whether or not there was something I was missing w/a daisy girth-hitched to the biner. Honestly not really that worried about blowing a loop, but you know how these things are - sometimes hard to conceptualize what could go wrong. I just wanted to run the "a girth-hitched biner mitigates the clipping two loops on a daisy problem" concept by other minds!

Anyhow, when it's time for a new daisy, I'll probably get a PAS instead, but for the time being, no need to spend the money. I'm supposed to be saving up for a new pair of tools!
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#16654 - 10/19/05 01:46 AM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
You're right of course: the biner can't fall out while it's attached to something big. Which it will be 99% of the time. But I still see no reason to girth hitch. It occupies extra space in the biner, weakens the attachment, and can theoretically creep around to place an inward force on the gate. Thoeretically. Clipping the biner into the end is simpler and still allows you to clip into a loop to adjust the length.

Whatever...

I didn't answer the stopper Q because I didn't have a good response. I'll happily defer to RG on the geometry and force calculation. The force he mentions is for a frictionless interface. In the face of significant rock-stopper friction, I suspect the outward force is less than the calculated value.

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#16655 - 10/19/05 04:04 AM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Julie]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Quote:

Clipping in (or even making the belay) with the rope is nice, but only if you're swinging leads. If you're not leading the next pitch, or if you're setting up to rap, you'll have to tie in to the anchor with some kind of sling.




As long as you're just clipping the ropes to the anchor (and not building the anchor out of them), it doesn't matter if you're swinging leads or not, just put the other person on belay, they unclip and go.

For rapping, you don't need a sling if you're using doubles. The leader reaches the rap rings and clips both ropes to the anchor. The second arrives and clips both ropes to the anchor. Leader unclips and unties blue rope from harness, feeds through ring. Second unclips and unties red rope, ties it to the blue rope. Both put themselves on rap. One keeps both on rap, the other unties, unclips, and drops the free ends. Not too bad as long as your ropes are flaked separately since you're dropping opposite ends.

If it's multiple raps, the first person down can stay tied into the pull (red rope above). They put an 8 on a bight on the rope, rap down, then clip the 8 to the next rap. While the second is rapping, they put in an additional 8 for the second to clip into when they get there. That doesn't take much more time than clipping a sling.

I still use a sling as a backup, but you can do it without any slings.

What if you've got two questionable bolts? Do you use a PAS and backup with a sling?
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#16656 - 10/19/05 12:43 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: quanto_the_mad]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
That's quite a ballet you've described.

For two bolts I clip into the PAS twice. I don't climb anywhere I'm likely to run into two questionable bolts but I'm not sure I'd do it differently. Sling or PAS, what's the dif to the bolt?

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#16657 - 10/20/05 12:08 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: rg@ofmc]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

...On the run here, but I think the chock exerts a normal force on each wall of the crack of F/(2sin a), where F is the load and a is the chock angle, measured from the vertical. (I'm assuming a straight-sided chock and crack perfectly matched to it, of course.)


This will, in general, be less than what you get with a cam. For example, in order for the normal force on one wall to be double the load, you'd need a chock angle around 14 degrees. I don't know what the actual angles are, but I think they're less than 14 degrees for most sizes.





I think I got tangent instead of sine, not that it matters that much for the low angles. Also the angle that is important is the angle of the crack, which might be the same as the angle of the stopper, but sometimes is not.

But the fact that it is inversely proportional to the tangent (or sin?) means that as the angle decreases the normal force on the wall increases. So if the angles are less than 14 degrees, the normal force exceeds the 4 times normal forces quoted previously for cams (which BTW was for parallel crack. It is, of course lower for less than parallel and higher for flaring).

For those whose eyes glaze over thinking about math and physics, there is a simple example to understand this principle. If you want to split very hard wood, you use a sharp narrow angle wedge, because it tranfers the sharp downward force into a higher outward force. (It is also why they sometimes get so solidly stuck - fixed weges )

[Sorry - minor hijack - continue with PAS discussion]

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