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#16636 - 10/17/05 05:08 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Julie]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Clipping in with the rope is also less than ideal if you're rapping down from that anchor and it's useless for anchoring in on sucessive raps. I do love having a daisy/PAS. I understand that they're optional but I'm so quick going clip, clip. Watching my partner fiddle with this that or the other method, depending on circumstances and available gear, is painful at times.

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#16637 - 10/17/05 05:43 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Both Julie and Dalguard have valid points (though I think Julie meant my way is a hassle when you lead every pitch) . it goes to show that these devices are more useful depending on your styles of climbing. When i know I'll be mucking around on multiple misc. anchors, I'll take along my daisy chain. If I can help it I don't. I always have 2 24" slings with lockers on them to hook into the anchor if needed. I have not found a very usefully and out of the way place to keep these "anchor systems" when I am leading.

For GUNKS craggin' I think they are not necessary.
for long multi-pitch climbing -yeah its worth the hassle.

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#16638 - 10/17/05 06:27 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Architect]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2471
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I've taken to carrying a daisy (actually the PAS) on most climbs, although the advantages are minor in any case and mostly of use on long routes.

One advantage on long routes is that the leader can clip the first anchor with the daisy and call off belay, giving the second a head start on dismantling their anchor while the leader continues to set up the next anchor. (The advantage of the PAS is that the daisy can become part of the final anchor if that is convenient.) The second, clipped with a daisy, can strip all but one anchor point while the leader is getting ready. Then when the second arrives at the stance, they immediately clip in with the daisy, freeing the belayer to help hand over gear for the next lead and make whatever adjustments in their belay are necessary. Over many pitches, this process can save some time.

Rappelling advantages are obvious, although something similar can be cobbled together with slings. These are far less adjustable, which may or may not matter much.

There are some other times when it is helpful to have a daisy. One that I find useful is in cleaning difficult gear. You place another piece, hang from the daisy, and use both hands on the problem piece. With todays long leads, it can be very trying to do this with tension from the belayer because of the ground lost to rope stretch, and communicating with the belayer can itself be problematic.

If, heaven forbid, you have to prussik up the rope for some reason, its an emergency, and having the daisy attached and ready to go is a tremendous help. Sometimes, in this situation, you may not have enough slings to substitute for the daisy, and you aren't going to have the adjustment ability that can make prussiking tolerable.

Finally, every now and then, even when crag climbing, you have to aid something, and having an attached daisy ready to go makes life a whole lot easier, especially if you don't have enough slings available when the need arises.

So for me, the accumulation of minor advantages just tips the scale in favor of carrying a daisy most of the time.

As for the PAS, the strength makes it possible to incorporate it into the anchor, and it also means that if you actually fall on the thing, say at a rappel station, you have a higher degree of confidence it will hold. (However, the forces involved for even short falls are enormous---I don't recommend putting it to the test, because some other piece of gear may well not be up to the task.)

Drawbacks of the PAS are that it is less adjustable than a standard daisy (because the loops are bigger), it is heavier and bulkier, and, in my opinion, it is too short (I'd like to see at least one more loop).

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#16639 - 10/17/05 07:21 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
I used daisys before the PAS was available. I use a PAS now for the extra security. Two Things I do with a PAS that have not been mentioned.

Tie my self off long to a “distant” anchor. Tie a butterfly in the rope near me and use the PAS to get the length exactly right for belay duty.

Extend a rappel device a short distance. This is neater and simpler than separate slings.

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#16640 - 10/17/05 07:58 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

If Mammut came out with one using the 8mm floss (or the new 6mm stuff) I'd be very tempted to buy it.




So why not put a 4 foot Mummut skinnysling on your harness and put an overhand knot in it every 4-6 inches? Yes, the knots may SLIDE, that stuff being slippery, but it's not going to blow up on you.

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#16641 - 10/17/05 08:47 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: mworking]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Extend a rappel device a short distance. This is neater and simpler than separate slings.
Hey - good idea - thanks!

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#16642 - 10/17/05 09:03 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I think you'd need to start with a sling longer than 4 feet. The knots eat up length.

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#16643 - 10/17/05 10:23 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

I think you'd need to start with a sling longer than 4 feet. The knots eat up length.




OK, so I'm a geek. I just measured this. A not-too-neatly dressed OH knot uses up just under 2.5 inches of Mammut sling. So a triple length sling might be best. Assuming they make such a beast.

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#16644 - 10/17/05 11:46 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Quote:

Quote:

If Mammut came out with one using the 8mm floss (or the new 6mm stuff) I'd be very tempted to buy it.




So why not put a 4 foot Mummut skinnysling on your harness and put an overhand knot in it every 4-6 inches? Yes, the knots may SLIDE, that stuff being slippery, but it's not going to blow up on you.




Did this last time out when I realized I forgot to bring a second daisy for my second. Just a couple of knots; worked just fine.

I always take a daisy - mostly out of habit I think. Generally use it to go ahead and clip into the first piece of an anchor and get off belay before going ahead and fixing up everything else; seems to save a bit of time (think this is what Mike was mentioning up above?)

Also, somewhat unrelated: Sure, you don't clip two loops of a daisy because the stitching between is not rated full strength and you don't want it to come undone and leave your biner attached to nothing - but, ignoring the static nature of the daisy and the fact that you wouldn't want to dynamically load it like you would should a loop fail - you should be able to avoid this problem by girthhitching your biner to the end of the daisy, no?
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#16645 - 10/18/05 12:25 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
I’m not saying don’t do it, or it won’t work, but I girth my PAS to the same spot on my harness every time climb. Then I tie in tight with it and shift around in my harness while belaying. Seems to me a skinny sling is going to create a lot more wear than the PAS which I bet was made bulky specifically to avoid wear issues, and the extra liability that might result.

If you just use it as a safety and don’t weight it, then thin material won’t make much of a difference. But, then you really aren’t using for all the things it is good for and you might as well just use your regular slings as many people do.

That said Mikes right, no-one has to make a skinny PAS. Just do it yourself the knots will be pretty small. Use a two foot and four footer together

And yes Aya girth hitching both ends of a daisy one to a harness, and the other to a safety biner should be “safe”; a good idea I never thought of.

Added: I meant with respect clipping two loops (a no-no) without the girth hitch. I also intentionally put quotes around safe, see Dawns post below.
If you don’t use the loops then you might as well have used a sling, and I don’t know whether falling directly on the end is better than ripping stitches on the way.
Guess I’ll just stay with a PAS.


Edited by mworking (10/18/05 01:37 PM)

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