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#16646 - 10/18/05 12:32 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
Architect Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 210
Loc: north by northeast (from jerse...
Quote:

Also, somewhat unrelated: Sure, you don't clip two loops of a daisy because the stitching between is not rated full strength and you don't want it to come undone and leave your biner attached to nothing - but, ignoring the static nature of the daisy and the fact that you wouldn't want to dynamically load it like you would should a loop fail - you should be able to avoid this problem by girthhitching your biner to the end of the daisy, no?




If you clip the Daisy correctly (not thru two loops but only one) then fall (ouch!) you would possibly pull thru the loop (2kn per loop) then shock load the remaining (how much force would that be?) until you pulled to the end which takes 22 Kn. the more loops the more "screamers" you have between you and the end. A lot of people try and tell me this is a bad thing but I like the fact that if I fell on my daisy from say 2 ft above the anchor and generated more the 2 Kns I wouldn't take the full force on my harness and that I might pull a loop or two much like a screamer would. I should test this out. anyways as in all things - don't trust your life to just one (for very long) connection.
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#16647 - 10/18/05 01:00 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Architect]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Story from the experts is that the pockets ripping weakens the sling itself, thus making the entire thing subject to failure, not just subject to lengthening. You don't want to rip pockets.

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#16648 - 10/18/05 02:41 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

Story from the experts is that the pockets ripping weakens the sling itself, thus making the entire thing subject to failure, not just subject to lengthening. You don't want to rip pockets.




Yes, I believe it was BD who reported that sometimes the chain fails before the end is reached.

As for girth hitching the biner to the end, why would you do that?? A GH on a biner is also a ring bend. Work a little slack into it and the biner falls out! Just clip the end; it's stronger too (I believe).

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#16649 - 10/18/05 03:29 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Mike, that is an interesting observation.
Of course you could make the same argument for girth hitching the harness. If you pull enough slack (sling is long enough) you could step through it and pull it out. I do think the original suggestion assumed the the biner mentioned was attached not only to the end of the daisy, but to something too big for the loose ends to go around (like maybe the earth).
OK, I guess even if the biner were attached to the earth, if it is long enough you could pull enough slack to step through it and have it fall out.

Not that I disagree that it is probably better just to clip the loop. I suppose if the manufacturer of daisy chains engineered the stitching to be a screamer, they would charge more and change their marketing.

Aside (and a different thread). You never did answer the question for discussion purposes on the outward forces exerted by a stopper behind a flake.

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#16650 - 10/18/05 09:19 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: D75]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Quote:

You never did answer the question for discussion purposes on the outward forces exerted by a stopper behind a flake.




On the run here, but I think the chock exerts a normal force on each wall of the crack of F/(2sin a), where F is the load and a is the chock angle, measured from the vertical. (I'm assuming a straight-sided chock and crack perfectly matched to it, of course.)

This will, in general, be less than what you get with a cam. For example, in order for the normal force on one wall to be double the load, you'd need a chock angle around 14 degrees. I don't know what the actual angles are, but I think they're less than 14 degrees for most sizes.

As for girth-hitching the biner, I don't understand the benefit.

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#16651 - 10/18/05 09:48 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Quote:

Quote:

Story from the experts is that the pockets ripping weakens the sling itself, thus making the entire thing subject to failure, not just subject to lengthening. You don't want to rip pockets.




Yes, I believe it was BD who reported that sometimes the chain fails before the end is reached.

As for girth hitching the biner to the end, why would you do that?? A GH on a biner is also a ring bend. Work a little slack into it and the biner falls out! Just clip the end; it's stronger too (I believe).




Well, I'm not exactly sure how it would fall out when it's clipped in to something (also the only scenario where I could potentially rip pockets on a daisy, and where my life is presumably in danger if it does fall off...)

That aside, the reason I would girth hitch the biner to the end - it's just quicker (and less likely that I'll drop the biner) when I get to an anchor for me to adjust the length of the daisy. Rather than removing the biner from the daisy and reattaching it to the loop I want, it is somewhat quicker (and requires lots less dexterity) to just open the gate, leave it clipped to the end of the daisy, and clip it through a loop and the anchor. I can do that with one hand. I have trouble unclipping from the end of the daisy and reclipping through a loop with one hand. As a person who is prone to dropping stuff (don't climb under me...), this is really helpful.

Yes, ripping pockets is bad - but this is true whether the biner is girth hitched to the end of the daisy or is clipped solely through the daisy, no? If there is daisy failure, there is daisy failure.
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#16652 - 10/18/05 10:03 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
So use the PAS and stop worrying about it. The pockets on the PAS are independent* so you can clip two at a time if you want. OTOH, there are way fewer of them.

*depending on how you look at it. If you were clipped to two pockets and the one farthest away from you blew somehow, you'd still be clipped in. However, if you were clipped to any number of pockets and the one closest to you blew, then the remainder of the PAS would no longer be attached to you and therefore worthless


Edited by dalguard (10/18/05 10:08 PM)

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#16653 - 10/18/05 11:10 PM Re: metolius PAS [Re: dalguard]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Who's worrying? I was just checking whether or not there was something I was missing w/a daisy girth-hitched to the biner. Honestly not really that worried about blowing a loop, but you know how these things are - sometimes hard to conceptualize what could go wrong. I just wanted to run the "a girth-hitched biner mitigates the clipping two loops on a daisy problem" concept by other minds!

Anyhow, when it's time for a new daisy, I'll probably get a PAS instead, but for the time being, no need to spend the money. I'm supposed to be saving up for a new pair of tools!
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#16654 - 10/19/05 01:46 AM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Aya]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
You're right of course: the biner can't fall out while it's attached to something big. Which it will be 99% of the time. But I still see no reason to girth hitch. It occupies extra space in the biner, weakens the attachment, and can theoretically creep around to place an inward force on the gate. Thoeretically. Clipping the biner into the end is simpler and still allows you to clip into a loop to adjust the length.

Whatever...

I didn't answer the stopper Q because I didn't have a good response. I'll happily defer to RG on the geometry and force calculation. The force he mentions is for a frictionless interface. In the face of significant rock-stopper friction, I suspect the outward force is less than the calculated value.

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#16655 - 10/19/05 04:04 AM Re: metolius PAS [Re: Julie]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Quote:

Clipping in (or even making the belay) with the rope is nice, but only if you're swinging leads. If you're not leading the next pitch, or if you're setting up to rap, you'll have to tie in to the anchor with some kind of sling.




As long as you're just clipping the ropes to the anchor (and not building the anchor out of them), it doesn't matter if you're swinging leads or not, just put the other person on belay, they unclip and go.

For rapping, you don't need a sling if you're using doubles. The leader reaches the rap rings and clips both ropes to the anchor. The second arrives and clips both ropes to the anchor. Leader unclips and unties blue rope from harness, feeds through ring. Second unclips and unties red rope, ties it to the blue rope. Both put themselves on rap. One keeps both on rap, the other unties, unclips, and drops the free ends. Not too bad as long as your ropes are flaked separately since you're dropping opposite ends.

If it's multiple raps, the first person down can stay tied into the pull (red rope above). They put an 8 on a bight on the rope, rap down, then clip the 8 to the next rap. While the second is rapping, they put in an additional 8 for the second to clip into when they get there. That doesn't take much more time than clipping a sling.

I still use a sling as a backup, but you can do it without any slings.

What if you've got two questionable bolts? Do you use a PAS and backup with a sling?
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