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#16776 - 10/27/05 06:11 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Kent, I am confused about a few things here. Perhaps you'd like to clarify.

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land. Although on it's surface this sounds great, if it becomes state land it will no longer be within the jurisdiction of Gardiner or Gardiner's zoning laws.

So - you do want land and property to be under Gardiner's jurisdiction and zoning laws ... or not? Seems you most often argue against jurisdiction and zoning ... but here you say the state's offer is bad because it exempts the Ridge from Gardiner's laws.

Also, the diiference between the asking price of $35 million and the offered price of $17 million

Now, a few of us here have some experience with real estate. One of the governing ideas, is that a property's true value is not its asking price as slapped on it by the owner; but comparable values determined by recent sales of similar, nearby properties.

On what, then, is Bradley's asking price based? I don't expect a large number of relevent comps ... so when you say "commitment" or talk about depressed values, why is that necessarily $35M?

And ah, the irony that all this property is so very valuable because it is undeveloped, by the land-grabbers you despise.

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#16777 - 10/27/05 06:16 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: irisharehere]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Are planning bodies liable for loss of value?

The proposed zoning law would be a regulatory taking of development rights on 2600 acres of land. If everything is done properly in this regulatory taking, then landowners have no recourse in court. Unfortunately for the town and the taxpayers, there is a risk that everything was not done properly. The details of this I can't discuss for a number of reasons. First, it's complicated and although I understand it when briefed by the legal folks, I wouldn't want to articulate it. Second, even if I could articulate it, this is not the appropriate venue for a detailed legal case to be made.

Beyond litigation costs to the town, which are ongoing, their are signifcant social costs too. Gardiner is in the midst of a sort of civil war over the way both the master plan and the zoning law were developed.

Landowners and taxpayers do have other avenues to pursue though in the effort to keep our rights. First, we can elect people to our town board who don't have sticky finger syndrome. There is an important local election twelve days from now, on Tuesday Nov. 8th. We'll all have to wait and see how that goes.

Second, in the event the people of Gardiner see fit to elect a board that continues in the vein of confiscating property rights with regulatory takings, those of us on the ridge can incorporate a village of our own within the town of Gardiner. We would still pay taxes to and receive services from Gardiner, but we would be able to write our own zoning laws. Names for said village have been kicked around already: Village of Mohonk, Trapps Village, FreeGardiner.

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#16778 - 10/27/05 06:32 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
So - you do want land and property to be under Gardiner's jurisdiction and zoning laws ... or not? Seems you most often argue against jurisdiction and zoning ...

I would prefer the land be under a reasonable local zoning law, emphasis on reasonable. Long ago, when reading of Bradley's objection to state ownership of the land, I thought the objection was odd. With an awareness that the state has had plans in the past for an entranceway to an expanded Minnewaska State Park through what is now the Awosting Reserve, Bradley's objection makes much more sense.

On what, then, is Bradley's asking price based? I don't expect a large number of relevent comps ... so when you say "commitment" or talk about depressed values, why is that necessarily $35M?

I believe the price is based on outside appraisers, but of course an asking price is just that, an asking price. The problem here is the proposed zoning law has greatly depressed the bidding price and presumably scared off many possible bidders. If this is by design rather than coincidence, the town has a big legal problem on it's hands, or so the legal eagles say.

And ah, the irony that all this property is so very valuable because it is undeveloped, by the land-grabbers you despise.

I've always been for the preservation of the land Julie, but in a fair and equitable way.

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#16779 - 10/29/05 04:43 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Kent]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Kent, as long as you don't stockpile weapons and construct a compound perimeter barrier for your incorporated village of Freegardiner I am all for it. Just kidding man...someone has to lighten up this conversation. On a serious note though...I wish people would use correct terminlogy with regards to landowners and classifcations of state owned property. OSI has no intention of turning this land over to the state. If that were the case there would be very little recreational development as far as parking lots, roads, bus depots. Instead one would be able to hike, climb, camp, hunt, fish, whatever. OSI's intentions are to turn it over to PIPC, not the state. PIPC is a completely different animal. Rule and regulations would be pretty much what exists on current PIPC lands now....more specifically, you can do nothing unless they give you express permission to do it. I don't want to see that property turned over to the park either, but better that than being grabbed up by yet another developer. I'll say again..if everyone who had a Save the Ridge bumper sticker or sign on their lawn put their money where their mouths were...maybe a reasonable solution could be presented. I saw a lot of signs on the lawns of VERY EXPENSIVE NEWLY CONSTRUCTED HOUSES.

RR

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#16780 - 10/29/05 10:07 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Kent]
Terrie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
Are there any cliffs that are attractive for climbing in the land parcel? If so, can someone describe?

_________________________
Links to my blog, and online t-shirt shop

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#16781 - 10/30/05 02:11 AM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Terrie]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
My understanding is no. It's not really a climbing issue aside from the view, which some people think we're ruining already.

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#16782 - 11/04/05 05:01 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: RangerRob]
Kevin Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 201
Here is an update from the Poughkeepsie Journal today (11/04/05), an AP story

Group hopes to buy, save 'Gunks parcel


Friday, November 4, 2005
Group hopes to buy, save 'Gunks parcel

The Associated Press


GARDINER — Environmentalists are negotiating to buy a prominent piece of Hudson Valley ridge land that was at the center of a recent development battle.

The Trust for Public Land hopes to close on a $17 million bid to buy a 2,500 acre parcel on the Shawangunk Ridge. The owners of the so-called Awosting Reserve, who hoped to build a high-end development, put the land up for sale after internal legal squabbles.

There were a number of bids for the land — listed at $35 million — but trust project manager Philip Nicholas said the bid placed by his group and the Open Space Institute was selected as the most feasible. He hoped to agree on a contract with a court-appointed trustee within weeks.

"If we don't secure this property, then it will be developed," Nicholas said.

The Shawangunk Ridge runs about 50 miles from near the Hudson River in Ulster County into New Jersey. Its sheer cliffs make it a favorite spot for rock climbers, who clamber up in droves on fair-weather weekends.

Large stretches of the ridge — known as the 'Gunks — are preserved, such as the areas in Minnewaska State Park and the Mohonk Preserve in Ulster.

The Awosting Reserve land is between those two protected parcels.

A furor arose a few years ago after Awosting Reserve LLC general partner John Atwater Bradley sought permission to clear space for 349 homes and a golf course. Local residents fearful of construction on the prominent natural landmark quickly organized opposition and "Save the Ridge" signs cropped up on countless lawns.

Bradley eventually ended up not only with local opposition, but disagreements with the company chosen to develop the site, Chaffin/Light Associates. Bradley fired the firm last year. Chaffin/Light sued Bradley and won. A judge in Delaware ordered the sale.

Nicholas said there are up to six other offers, but theirs was selected as the best, in part because there were no contingencies and the deal could be closed quickly.

They are negotiating with the trustee.

If the bid is accepted, the preservation groups plan to sell the land to the state.

New York could use money from its Environmental Protection Fund to expand the borders of Minnewaska, state parks spokeswoman Wendy Gibson said.

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#16783 - 11/04/05 05:50 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Kevin]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
From Kent's first post above:

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land.

From RangerRob's last post above:

OSI's intentions are to turn it over to PIPC, not the state.

From Kevin's post immediately above:

If the bid is accepted, the preservation groups plan to sell the land to the state.

So if the deal happens, who's gonna get the land?
_________________________

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#16784 - 11/07/05 03:31 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: oenophore]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

From Kent's first post above:

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land.

From RangerRob's last post above:

OSI's intentions are to turn it over to PIPC, not the state.

From Kevin's post immediately above:

If the bid is accepted, the preservation groups plan to sell the land to the state.

So if the deal happens, who's gonna get the land?




From a narrow, climber-oriented point of view, it doesn't matter who they sell it to - neither NYS nor PIPC is climber-friendly.

Of course we're being fed conflicting info on whether there's cliffline on the parcel as well.

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#16785 - 11/07/05 03:58 PM Re: Awosting Reserve for sale [Re: Mike Rawdon]
tradjunkie Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
From a narrow, climber-oriented point of view, it doesn't matter who they sell it to - neither NYS nor PIPC is climber-friendly.

Of course we're being fed conflicting info on whether there's cliffline on the parcel as well.




All the maps I've seen show cliffline on the parcel. I just biked along Castle Point the other day - and there is DEFINITELY a fair amount of nice white cliff on where the maps show the parcel that I could see, and I could only see a small part of the 'alleged' cliffline.


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