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#16818 - 10/26/05 02:28 AM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: D75]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 275
Loc: cornwall
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Quote:
Should be able to fit a quarter inch stainless in one of those old holes
quarter inch? the american safe climbing association's web site has instructions for how to replace old 1/4" bolts with nice new 3/8" ones that should last decades: ASCA
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#16819 - 10/26/05 05:07 AM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: fallenglass]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2320
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
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maybe you can say more about this rel. rope stretch and how it relates to the elongation numbers that the manufacturers spec their ropes with? Which are, for a small sampling of ropes that I see people climbing with, more in the neighborhood of 7%.
The "working elongation" numbers you mention are for fall factor zero, i.e. for just hanging on the rope. As the fall factor goes up, so does the relative amount of rope stretch, up to around 30% for fall factor 2.
I'm just trying to say that a person 90 or more feet up and out of sight of the belayer with their waist a foot above a piece could fall and quite possibly end up 10 - 15 feet lower without the belayer having done anything inappropriate. The fact that something like this happened is not prima facie evidence of belayer inattention or incompetence. It also, by the way, should not be viewed as, say, a 13 foot fall. The climber fell 3 feet and was decelerated over the next 10 feet or so.
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#16820 - 10/26/05 02:14 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: rg@ofmc]
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old hand
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 758
Loc: livin' on the edge
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As always, i'm right there with ya for most of the post, rg.
However, the distance of a fall is the distance of a fall, not the distance to where decel originates. When I'm hanging on the end of my cord looking up at my optimistic nut that just happened to hold, and I observe the appaling distance I've covered, I think "shit- hell of a 20 footer", not "nasty 5 footer with 15 feet of stretch". The distinction is not just all humorousness, in that until I attain V= 0, human-body-in-motion vs rock can be a big concern. Not to mention making my descripition of my whipper back at Bachus a much more long winded affair. (also not a trivial matter).
_________________________
(not that there's anything wrong with that...sorta)
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#16821 - 10/26/05 04:49 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: browndog2]
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veteran
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
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Really? I'd think 5 footer. Falling during deceleration feels different. I never consider the rope stretch when I'm looking at a fall.
There have been times when the rope stretch surprised me but those were on TR.
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#16822 - 10/26/05 04:49 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: browndog2]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
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Quote:
...Not to mention making my descripition of my whipper back at Bachus a much more long winded affair. (also not a trivial matter).
Too late. Now whenever you mention that 20 foot whipper, somebody is going to ask how much of it was just slowin' down. Story is going to be longer winded (than it probably already is), but less colorful. On top of that you'll have to confess whether you warned your belayer that you might pitch.
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#16823 - 10/26/05 04:56 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: dalguard]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
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Quote:
Really? I'd think 5 footer. Falling during deceleration feels different. I never consider the rope stretch when I'm looking at a fall.
There have been times when the rope stretch surprised me but those were on TR.
No wonder she thought 10 foot fall was ridiculous! Look's like we need internationally defined standard for measurement of falls.
Yup. Fall would feel different in the two phases. Goes from -1g to plus and the plus part is usually shorter than the minus part. (Equations omitted). 
Edited by D75 (10/26/05 04:59 PM)
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#16824 - 10/26/05 05:17 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: dalguard]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
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Quote:
I never consider the rope stretch when I'm looking at a fall.
You might want to rethink that. I can introduce you to a climbing partner who still has two (of the original five) screws in his once-shattered ankle. His foot hit a flake sticking out of an overhanging crack. He fell when he was 5' above his piece - the flake was about 12' below (the point where he fell, not the piece that caught him).
_________________________
- Marc
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#16825 - 10/26/05 05:26 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: dalguard]
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old hand
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 758
Loc: livin' on the edge
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Quote:
Really? I'd think 5 footer. Falling during deceleration feels different. I never consider the rope stretch when I'm looking at a fall.
There have been times when the rope stretch surprised me but those were on TR.
Dawn, I applaud your perceptive abilities, but when I'm goin' 82nd Airborne, all I percieve are a blur of rock, trees, light and shadow. On the longer rides, I remember thinking "shit, I hope I stop....soon...". I don't have the awareness to think, " hmmm, just after whizzing by that chickenhead, I think I'm starting to feel the rope, and just past that horizontal I'm really slowing down, and..."
So the stretchier the cord, THE SMALLER THE FALL. What a concept. So those big rides I've taken on skinny cords weren't really big rides. Whotta relief.
_________________________
(not that there's anything wrong with that...sorta)
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#16826 - 10/26/05 05:53 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: browndog2]
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veteran
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
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Not sure I've ever noticed the difference in a lead fall but have never fallen 10 extra feet due to rope stretch that I'm aware of, which is why I'm so sceptical of all this. I'm light and don't use doubles and I like to keep that gear at my waist but it still seems odd to me that you guys are managing to add 10 feet to a short fall on rope stretch alone.
I took a 15 footer on TR once thanks to rope stretch. Scary but I could tell I wasn't being dropped. The worst part was having to climb those 15 feet again. I was at the end of the hard part when I came off.
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#16827 - 10/26/05 06:14 PM
Re: Arrow bolts
[Re: dalguard]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2025
Loc: SoCal
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Not sure I've ever noticed the difference in a lead fall but have never fallen 10 extra feet due to rope stretch that I'm aware of
I think the point here is that all of your falls, whether you realize it or not, have involved significant rope stretch; and that, mid-fall, you'll never be able to tell whether it's "extra due to rope stretch". You fall how far you fall, and if you're lucky, you stop at the end of the fall ...
(edit) ... some nontrivial distance above the ground, unless you're Murph on the Springboard 
Edited by Julie (10/26/05 06:36 PM)
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