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#16858 - 10/27/05 05:41 PM The Mugging of Gardiner
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards


In Gardiner the proposed zoning law, and the master plan on which it is based, have been heavily influenced by the Mohonk Preserve and their more extreme members from both near and far. People from Red Hook, High Falls, Shawangunk, New York City, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Washington, D.C. have had more say in what is going to happen on the ridge than the people of Gardiner or the people who own the land in question.

The proposed divisive zoning law, if passed by the current Gardiner Town Board or the next, will Balkanize Gardiner by further pitting residents who don’t own the ridge against residents who do. It will likely also yield a bumper crop of lawsuits. The people of Gardiner, rather than out-of-towners or the Mohonk Preserve, will bear all of the social and legal costs that are a consequence of this piracy. The Gardiner Democratic Party Platform calls for bringing this zoning law, this Balkanization of Gardiner, this pitting of resident against resident, this land piracy, to fruition.

It is said republicans become democrats if they go bankrupt and democrats become republicans if they get mugged. So after twenty-five years of voting for democrats and green party candidates, I’ll be voting for republicans Pam O’Dell, John Friedle, and Fred Fischer. They have a strong sense of right and wrong. They have a strong sense of honor. They will work with landowners like me to promote fair and equitable land preservation. Pam, John, and Fred, by their words and deeds, have demonstrated a belief that Gardiner town government should be by, of, and for the people of Gardiner, rather than people from all over the region or country.

To help restore a sense of civility, respect, and local accountability to Gardiner town government, I invite like minded democrats, conservatives, unaffiliated voters, and republicans to join me in voting for republicans Pam O’Dell, John Friedle, and Fred Fischer on Tuesday, November 8th.

Kent Pierce
Gardiner Ridgeowner

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#16859 - 11/02/05 05:23 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: Kent]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
so what you're saying people who come from NJ, CT, VT,NH to climb, hike, bike and just take in scenery of a beautiful shwanagunk ridge should have no say in this matter. you have to remember the out of towners spend a lot of money in the town of Gardiner/ new platz and the main attraction is the ridge. maybe if you're lucky they will vote against a zoning law, then you could build a big giant ferris wheel on top of the ridge. this may help offset all money lost from out of towners not coming to visit anymore.
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#16860 - 11/02/05 06:24 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: talus]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
The say that someone who doesn't own land in the region should have is exactly what you are weilding. The dollar. Let the local people deal with their own issues. If the environment that they create, in the area that they have to live in, is so objectionable to you that you feel it is not an appealling destination to you anymore, then stop going there and take your money somewhere else. If the almighty tourist dollar is as impactful to them as you are suggesting, over time, it will adjust. The market's not stupid. What is valuable persists and what isn't generally goes away.

last I knew, the middle hudson valley region was pretty self-sustaining in its economy. It doesn't live or die by the tourist dollar as much as some place like Tupper Lake, NY does.

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#16861 - 11/02/05 07:37 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: strat]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
ah, but strat, how do you value a public good like the ridge, or national forest lands for that matter? it is exceedingly difficult to quantify, and the interests are generally diffuse and hard to organize. Which is why the people who most stand to benefit from despoliation (in the national forest arena anyway) are generally much more focussed and well-financed. They wield inordinate power. What if someone wanted to place an enormous hydroelectric facility atop Niagara Falls, or dam the Colorodo river such that it would fill the Grand Canyon? Extreme examples, I know, but it would be easy to quantify in dollars, what someone would stand to gain, much as developing the ridge would On the other hand, it's just too difficult to do for something as intangible as scenery or solitude.

I don't know what the answer is here, but I would think that in light of the recent Supreme Court case (Kuhn, I think), landowners like Kent have a tough row to hoe if they intend to sue the municipality. Changing their elected officials is probably their best course. But I just can't help but think that these folks are really pissed off because ultimately, they all intended to develop or benefit from the sale of their land to developers.


Edited by nerdom (11/02/05 07:38 PM)
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#16862 - 11/02/05 07:53 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: nerdom]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
"But I just can't help but think that these folks are really pissed off because ultimately, they all intended to develop or benefit from the sale of their land to developers. "


Jeeze, how can you make a blanket statement like that? Assuming that all private property advocates in this arena are solely motivated by monetary gain, to a developer no less, makes you sound like a real estate elitist! What color is the sun in your world where everything is seen so starkly black or white?

Are you referring to the Kehoe case in New London CT?


Edited by alicex4 (11/02/05 07:57 PM)

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#16863 - 11/02/05 08:05 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: talus]
webmaster Offline

veteran

Registered: 01/06/00
Posts: 1273
Loc: New Paltz (Kerhonkson, actuall...
Quote:

you have to remember the out of towners spend a lot of money in the town of Gardiner/ new platz and the main attraction is the ridge. maybe if you're lucky they will vote against a zoning law, then you could build a big giant ferris wheel on top of the ridge. this may help offset all money lost from out of towners not coming to visit anymore.




What you, and most weekenders, are missing is that the Town of Gardiner takes in precious little weekend tourist dollars. Due to the simple layout of the roads, all of you come thru the Town of New Paltz, which is quite overjoyed and supportive of all things that keep weekend dollars coming back. Basically, New Paltz is getting all the benefits, and Gardiner gets all the headaches, like:

  • Meager revenue from a Not-for-Profit Preserve occupying a few hundred acres of prime town land
  • Dealing with over-crowding, noise and garbage from the multi-use area
  • Not being able to park at the town's overlook because it's crammed full of climbers
  • etc.

So you should realize what you're dealing with before you go thinking the $50 - $200 you spend at Rock & Snow and the Bistro over the weekend is going to keep Gardiner politicians leaning your way. It won't. This is a town of old farmland that has been turned into a semi-suburban world of McMansions filled with re-located or part-time, well-to-do New York City dwellers. Their interest in the ridge is primarily based on it's ability to increase the value of their homes (thereby the strong, effective reaction to the Bradley Development). Climbers, economically are not in the same league as these people, and their opinions do not carry much weight.

If you were to attend a Gardiner town meeting and raised your concerns, I think you'd be ignored, or laughed out of the room.

I think the best option for climbers is to support groups like the GCC, who are on the ground on a daily basis to gently remind the folks in Gardiner to be magnanimous toward our community. That's not to say that the GCC has always done the best it could in these situations, but it's our best shot, IMHO.

-em

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#16864 - 11/02/05 08:11 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: strat]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
so strat i guess Ron Kauk should not give a hoot about development / expansion in Curry village since he is from San Francisco. hell why don't they just put a whole vegas casino between clouds rest and half dome and have a rollar coster going up half dome instead of the cables. so what i'm saying to you how many yosemite's are out there, how many shwanagunk ridges are there? who's going to speak up? the people of Gardiner. that's just going to be split down the middle then. personally i rather not see development up on or around the ridge.

it's really not about the dollar except for those certain ridge owners. for me the ridge is a place that i love. from sam's point all the way to bonticue.

woodstock = tourists
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#16865 - 11/02/05 08:40 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: webmaster]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
his is a town of old farmland that has been turned into a semi-suburban world of McMansions filled with re-located or part-time, well-to-do New York City dwellers.

That raises a question I'd been wondering about - anyone have a sense how many of the folks who own property on the ridge are full-time residents versus weekend or seasonal ridge-dwellers?
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#16866 - 11/02/05 08:41 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: talus]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

so strat i guess Ron Kauk should not give a hoot about development / expansion in Curry village since he is from San Francisco. hell why don't they just put a whole vegas casino between clouds rest and half dome and have a rollar coster going up half dome instead of the cables. so what i'm saying to you how many yosemite's are out there, how many shwanagunk ridges are there? who's going to speak up? the people of Gardiner. that's just going to be split down the middle then. personally i rather not see development up on or around the ridge.

it's really not about the dollar except for those certain ridge owners. for me the ridge is a place that i love. from sam's point all the way to bonticue.

woodstock = tourists




You can have a concern about the Shawangunk ridge. You can voice a concern by writing a letter to an editor or showing up at a town meeting and voicing the concern. You can further express your concern by the dollars that you choose to spend. Outside of that, you shouldn't expect any other say in the matter (like the ability to vote on issues that are specific to Gardiner).

That's all I'm saying.

I think it is exceedingly difficult for someone who spends about 20 hours a week in the area and reads a little bit of what's going on to understand enough of the situation to act in a responsible way. Particularly with very complicated issues like are involved here. Kent is obviously a learned man and yet you see the outrage that follows on this forum from some of his posts. And, when you read alot of that outrage it is clear that the people who are enraged don't clearly understand the issue. How could they? They don't live it the way Kent and Chris M do.

If anyone wants to see the socio-economic disaster that results from people living in wilderness that has intense restrictions- study the Adirondack towns of Tupper Lake, Long Lake, Newcomb, and Keene Valley.

Evan, Honestly, the following two bullet points that you site are incredibly trivial and detract from your otherwise valid arguement:

"Dealing with over-crowding, noise and garbage from the multi-use area

Not being able to park at the town's overlook because it's crammed full of climbers"

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#16867 - 11/02/05 09:52 PM Re: The Mugging of Gardiner [Re: strat]
webmaster Offline

veteran

Registered: 01/06/00
Posts: 1273
Loc: New Paltz (Kerhonkson, actuall...
Quote:

Evan, Honestly, the following two bullet points that you site are incredibly trivial and detract from your otherwise valid arguement:

"Dealing with over-crowding, noise and garbage from the multi-use area

Not being able to park at the town's overlook because it's crammed full of climbers"



The point is that they are not trivial to Gardiner residents. So when you find an AMC campground stymied for 8 years, and wonder why there's no good campground in the Gunks after 40 years, look no further than the Multi-Abuse area. It's the problems you're calling trivial that are Gardiner residents main gripes with climbers, and their main motivation for making the area less visitor friendly.

Sam, how can you write a post acknowledging the insights to be had when living in an area and then turn around in the next sentence and say that a local's observations are trivial? Is this an example of "do as I say, not as I do"?

-em
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