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#17536 - 12/20/05 04:19 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: alicex4]
piker Offline
member

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 149
Alice,

Are you outraged about the Echelon Program and satisfied with Bush's use of the NSA?
or
Are you equally outraged or equally satisfied with both programs?
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Just because it's false, doesn't make it untrue.

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#17537 - 12/20/05 04:23 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: alicex4]
zachres Offline
addict

Registered: 04/03/03
Posts: 495
Loc: In the midst of a "psychotic b...
The name "Echelon" refers to a complex network of sattelites and other monitoring technology that has been developed for the past 50 years in cooperation with our European allies... Yes, it exists... and, no it can't be used without adhereing to laws such as FISA.

In the late 90s and in 2000, the NSA was thought to be using Echelon to eavesdrop on any and all communications utilizing the Internet... I don't remember, nor can I find any record of, whether or not it was ever proven that they were doing this. However, in those years, there was a ton of public debate over privacy issues where the Internet is concerned.

There was also one instance of a French trade group accusing the NSA of stealing their member comapnie's secrets for the benefit of American corporations.

Now... how this compares to a President how is admittedly, directly involved in breaking established laws???

You've got to ask yourself:
FISA was enacted in 76, 79?? (can't remember the exact year), to give our intelligence agencies a legal framework under which to conduct secret surveilance both domestically and internationally. If the President felt that he needed to eavesdrop on potential terrorists, all he had to do was seek a warrant from the secret courts established by FISA. Since their inception, these courts have granted 18,995 secret warrants out of 19,000... AND, a warrant can be granted retroactively, up to 72 hours after the surveilance.
1. How hard can it really be to obtain these warrants??
2. Why did the president feel the need to circumvent the law??
3. If the legal structure for surveilance is so cumbersome, why doesn't the President do the RIGHT THING, and go to Congress for changes? It's not like the Congress hasn't been his lapdog up until the past few months.

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#17538 - 12/20/05 04:28 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: alicex4]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
briefly, Echelon is not necessarily economic.

Very briefly, the system consists an adaptive filter used to discover the prevelance of certain key words in all electronic communications intercepted by the NSA (ie all communications in the world), and then mechanically segregate those intercepts for human analysts.

You can use it for economic purposes, but it was really designed and implemented to determine large scale troop movements. People talk about using it to find terrorists, but that was not the initial focus because it was far beyond the capabilities of natural language search to segregate the massive volume of communications found from any 'terrorist' search word. (try searching google for bomb. then search google for something like 'fourth division second brigade. you should get the idea.)

Furthermore, Echelon is (was?) designed specifically to ignore IPs and other geographic locaters indicating that the messages originated in the USA. The problems of integrating Carnivore into the Echelon system--echelon is vulnerable to fiber optics as it is a robust problem to listen in to fiber optic communication--arose from figuring out which users of hotmail were in the USA and which weren't...

So, the usage of the tools of the NSA to 'listen in' to US citizens in the USA is wholly new.

And in my mind reprehensible as well as criminal.

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#17539 - 12/20/05 04:55 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: intrepid02]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

So, can we impeach Bush yet? It seems pretty likely that he broke some laws in this latest scandal.



Consider.....do you really want Cheney as President?
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#17540 - 12/20/05 07:47 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: MarcC]
zachres Offline
addict

Registered: 04/03/03
Posts: 495
Loc: In the midst of a "psychotic b...
Ha ha...

Here is part of George Tenet's testimony on Echelon in 2000:

"I’m here today to discuss specific issues about and allegations regarding Signals Intelligence activities and the so-called Echelon Program of the National Security Agency…

There is a rigorous regime of checks and balances which we, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency and the FBI scrupulously adhere to whenever conversations of U.S. persons are involved, whether directly or indirectly. We do not collect against U.S. persons unless they are agents of a foreign power as that term is defined in the law. We do not target their conversations for collection in the United States unless a FISA warrant has been obtained from the FISA court by the Justice Department."


Alice, aren't you tired of getting your information from liars?

Zach
_________________________
Give me liberty, or give me death!

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#17541 - 12/20/05 08:22 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: zachres]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
It all depends on who's ox is being gored Zachres. It seems as if you are all finally on board. I was as befuddled and appalled in the 90's with Echelon and Carnivore as I am now. For me, disillusionment really started with the RICO statutes in the 70's, and we can see how well they have abolished organized crime's involvement in "legitimate businesses." As an aside, getting a FISA warrant had not helped the defendents in United States v. Battle. The defendants asked to review the warrant applications the FBI submitted to the FISA courts and were denied. Without knowing the basis for the warrants, the defendants contend, they cannot know if their Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures were abridged. The judge ruled, however, that the basis for the warrants will remain secret. This is a creepy precident set in 2003, it will mean that a U.S. citizen can now be convicted of a crime, without ever knowing the reasons why the government was given permission to spy on them in the first place. All 5 defendants reached a plea agreement of guilty I believe. People allow the govt to take their liberties in small increments and hardly a word is uttered by the public. The barn door has been open for many years and the animals aren't even on the property anymore. Seems people are finally noticing at least. Bray all you want to about this latest offense, a day late and a dollar short as far as I am concerned, but a 'better late than never' platitude might fit in here.

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#17542 - 12/21/05 01:27 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: alicex4]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1040
Loc: hamlet's hand
[quote This is a creepy precident set in 2003, it will mean that a U.S. citizen can now be convicted of a crime, without ever knowing the reasons why the government was given permission to spy on them in the first place.




ah, Kafka...
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it's Sha-WAN-gunk.

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#17543 - 12/22/05 03:36 PM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: yorick]
zachres Offline
addict

Registered: 04/03/03
Posts: 495
Loc: In the midst of a "psychotic b...
Well.. the answer to the question is: Yes, it's time!

Or, it's getting really close.

The text of a broadcast email I got from John Conyers:


Dear Friend:

Today I released a staff Report entitled, “The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution and Coverups in the Iraq War.”

In response to the Report – which finds substantial evidence of federal legal violations by numerous members of the Bush Administration --
I have introduced a resolution creating a Select Committee with subpoena authority to investigate the misconduct of the Bush Administration with regard to the Iraq war and report on possible impeachable offenses; as well as Resolutions proposing both President Bush and Vice-President Cheney should be censured by Congress based on the uncontroverted evidence of their abuse of power.
_________________________
Give me liberty, or give me death!

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#17544 - 12/23/05 12:24 AM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: intrepid02]
PeteG Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/30/00
Posts: 300
Loc: Saranac Lake, NY
Quote:

So, can we impeach Bush yet?




Not yet, but maybe if we can get somebody to respond to this:


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#17545 - 12/23/05 04:48 AM Re: Is it time yet? [Re: PeteG]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
That's a tough job but I suppose for the sake of the country . . .

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