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#17750 - 01/18/06 02:32 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
jdw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 219
Loc: Connecticut
Quote:

aliens had their cams done by an outside engineer. in his process he was quinching the cams after brazing. which means he was placing the cam in a water solution to rapidly cool the part. this type of method should never be used for brazing parts. the part will not get a good bond between braze alloy and housing.

the outside engineer marked all his cams with a dot (hardness tester), so if your cams do not have the dot your cams are ok.




What do you mean by "had all their cams done by an outside engineer"? Do you mean an outside brazier [sp?] It doesn't make sense that an engineer would be brazing cam wires.

And why would he use a hardness tester?

How do you know these details?

JDW

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#17751 - 01/18/06 02:52 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: jdw]
Mark Heyman Online   content
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
My comment to that post exactly.

But more importantly - If the dots were not made by fixtureing at that contractors location, then the safety of a particlar unit is dependant on whether that contractor actully bothered to put tdots on every unit he made. Personally I assume the guy rushed, and thats why he was quenching in the first place. I'm not going to trust that he took the extra time to carefully mark his units!

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#17752 - 01/18/06 12:40 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chazman]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
Quote:

Quote:

http://www.aliencams.com/recall.html



You found this link on their website? I can't find it. Is this some page they put out to cover their ass that is just floating on the web that you would need to specifically google "failed climbing cams" to locate? Boy , this company gives me the warm fuzzy




Hey... look at their home page now... a recall notice. What a great idea! Boy these guys are on top of this problem.

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#17753 - 01/18/06 02:02 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chazman]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
JDW

Well i'm not sure if the guy is a engineer or not, it could be the guy just has a machince shop. it's not just a brazer, it's the process of brazing. I know all about brazing, heat treating, quenching, etc.. for that's what i do for work. i have even tested brazing process for CCH and metalious using RF induction generators.

hardness tester are used for specfic applications where the hardness is critical. one job i worked on was breaker boxes have to have a certain hardness to take the switching on & off all the time. from my experience the dots are typical of a hardness test.

see when you heat metal to cherry red the metal becomes soft, using a quench water or oil solution will harden the metal. This process is NOT suited for braze application unless you do multiple heatings. When quenching the housing & braze will cool at different times and tempertures. This leads a braze that will Not adhere to the housing but will look like a good braze joint on the surface.

i found out from Rock & snow about the outsourced cams and the process they were using.

hope this helps


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John Okner Photography

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#17754 - 01/18/06 02:15 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
mark,

from my understanding the outsourced cams process was not rushed and they thought it was a good way to braze the cams using a quench. at the end of the day there is no time difference between letting the part air cool and quenching. the heating time is the critical part. also i was told that the cams where marked from the outsource co.
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John Okner Photography

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#17755 - 01/18/06 04:15 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
Mark Heyman Online   content
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
the outsourced cams process was not rushed and they thought it was a good way to braze the cams using a quench. at the end of the day there is no time difference between letting the part air cool and quenching. the heating time is the critical part. also i was told that the cams where marked from the outsource co.

Perhaps, but it is still likely easier and faster to handle them when they are cool.
That does not eliminate my concern over whether all suspect Aliens really have dots. So far it seems they were made individually by hand. This alone might be unreliable, but they were were made individually by hand by someone who was already "screwing up" in other ways.

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#17756 - 01/18/06 05:31 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
how you handle the hot parts doesn't matter. you still have to grab the hot part to place it in the quench solution or to lay on bench top to air cool. unless the part directly drops into the quech after the heating cycle.

as far as the dot goes i have no idea i've only seen pictures of the dot. you should be able to test your cams with bounce test. the braze bond is weak and should fail under a low force. take this with a grain a salt though, some braze strength may be stronger than others depending on the time it took to actually place the part in the quench.

imo if you are really concered about your cams send them back to CCH or have the braze joint x rayed.

hope this helps
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John Okner Photography

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#17757 - 01/18/06 05:37 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
imo if you are really concered about your cams send them back to CCH or have the braze joint x rayed.

Is having the joint x-rayed a viable option for most of us? I'm sure with a little digging I could Google up some sort of metallurgy testing lab, but what would this kind of testing cost me? Without knowing any better I'd guess it would be cheaper to buy new cams.
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#17758 - 01/18/06 06:18 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GeeVee]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
oh f*#king christ. it's f*#king option. getting an x ray may be cheaper then a funneral. now go play in traffic.
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John Okner Photography

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#17759 - 01/18/06 06:26 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2082
Loc: SoCal
I stopped in at Nomad Ventures (Joshua Tree) on Monday, they had some of the recalled Aliens. The pimple/dimple is very clear and apparant, though the question of whether the outsourcer marked every single one of the cams he brazed, is still open and valid.

Personally, all of my Aliens have already proven themselves, so I'm not going to do anything with them.

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