Shout Box

Who's Online
1 registered (1 invisible), 2 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#17710 - 01/11/06 10:45 PM ALIEN FAILURE
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
Ok folks, it looks official. I just got a email from Paul Fish (the pres and owner of mgear.com) stating that he tested 9 new aliens from his stock and 3 failed below their rated strength.

Its all over Rockclimbing.com in the gear forum.


Graham

Top
#17711 - 01/12/06 01:53 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: crackers]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Presumably these are all 2005 dated units?

edit - OK, I read the letter...all are from 2005 production (date is on trigger bars)


Edited by Mike Rawdon (01/12/06 02:43 AM)

Top
#17712 - 01/12/06 02:29 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: crackers]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
Yikes, sounds like there might be a serious quality control issue with recently manufactured aliens. I recently replaced my green alien, I think I'll sub it with a blue TCU for a while until more develops (but still use all of the others that I've been falling on for years). Stay tuned for a major recall.
_________________________
GymClimbingPoser

Top
#17713 - 01/12/06 06:44 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: crackers]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Just logged in to post this myself.since it gained some credibiity.

Anyway prepare for at least a spell of unavailabilty.


Edited by Mark Heyman (01/12/06 07:05 AM)

Top
#17714 - 01/12/06 02:18 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
If you want to dump your aliens, PM me
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

Top
#17715 - 01/12/06 03:00 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mike Rawdon]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Only Aliens I bought in 2005 were offsets. Does anyone know if this affects offsets?

Top
#17716 - 01/12/06 03:44 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: dalguard]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
From the rc.com thread

"We took nine units of various sizes and date stamps dating back to the earliest we had in stock which is 0605 for pull testing. Of the nine Aliens tested, three brazes failed and the cable pulled out at below the CCH-stated max strength for that size. The failures were from different sizes and date stamps, and included both Hybrid and regular Aliens. "
_________________________


Top
#17717 - 01/12/06 05:31 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: dalguard]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
You have to have a lot of free time to keep up with this one over there. I have read a lot, but not all. I am pretty sure that the real problem is QC in general - and so far no one really knows how far back. People assume it is just only "very new" units but I am not convinced, and no one is assured (from what I have read) of when the problems began.

The real concern is the lack of information, and I believe that it because CCH doesn't really have any, or any QC program, or customer service, or web site deveopment, or the capability to fill their orders...it's a shame.

The more severe QC problem seems to be the strength of the braze/solder of the cable to the stem. I would be concerned that this would affect all Aliens. Again there is little to go on at this time.

PS What size is an orange Alien? - Aliens have already vanished from the REI and mgear web sites - the only two I checked.





Edited by Mark Heyman (01/12/06 05:33 PM)

Top
#17718 - 01/12/06 05:49 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
The orange alien is one size up from the red (...it goes to eleven...), it's about the same size as a .75 green camalot.
_________________________
GymClimbingPoser

Top
#17719 - 01/12/06 08:16 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GymClimbingPoser]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I just got a call from Rock & Snow. Very proactive of them. They said that between the cam lobes there's a thing that looks like a thermometer, like a bulb with a shaft, and at the center of the bulb on the defective ones there's a punch mark, like a dimple, very small.

I don't have an Alien here at work to check it out on so my description may be a little screwy. I was jotting down notes quickly. R&S also said you could bring yours in for inspection. However, it doesn't sound like there's a unified plan for replacement at this point. They said I could send them in to CCH myself or bring them to R&S, which I think is what I'll do because I trust them more than CCH. But how long it'll take to get replacements is anyone's guess.

He also said the problem was caused by "outsourcing." Well, we all knew outsourcing was evil.

Top
#17720 - 01/12/06 08:26 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: dalguard]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
I got a call too. Very good on R&S's part
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

Top
#17721 - 01/12/06 09:05 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: dalguard]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Here's a link to a picture of the dimple, posted in the MGEAR thread, page 10 at rc.com

http://eyecannon.com/aliendefect.jpg



Edited by quanto_the_mad (01/12/06 09:07 PM)
_________________________


Top
#17722 - 01/12/06 10:36 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: quanto_the_mad]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
so its that tiny little dimple underneath the bulb part?
i wish i remembered where i got my orange alien. its fairly new
_________________________
Just Call me Mr. Enthusiasm

Top
#17723 - 01/13/06 01:53 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: CrackBoy]
ShakesALot Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 255
Loc: NJ
Below is a rc ref to a post from CCH with more info on returns etc...

http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/104853

I haven't been contacted by R&S, maybe they just haven't got to the Y's yet!


Top
#17724 - 01/13/06 05:21 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: ShakesALot]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Here is a copy of the recall letter. The picture of the center punch dimple they mention is not yet on their web site.

Colorado Custom Hardware, (CCH) has recently completed an investigation and extensive testing to identify and isolate safety issues concerning the brazing on CCH Alien cams. The safety of our customers is our number one priority.
Testing has revealed that there was a brazing issue with specific cams made after November 2004. The units to be identified are marked with a small center punch dimple at the base of the round ball where the axle goes through the cable eye. Although few failures have been reported, CCH recommends immediately discontinuing the use of any Aliens with this mark. CCH is recalling the cams with the identifying punch mark. Please return them to CCH for a new replacement unit. You can mail your cams to:
Colorado Custom Hardware, Inc
ATTN: Brazing Recall
115 E. Lyon St
Laramie, WY 82072
If you are not sure if your cams are included in the recall, please contact us at
(307)721-9385.
We sincerely apologize for this inconvenience and we are doing everything possible to correct it quickly. There will be a photograph on our web site to help to identify the cams that need to be returned. The Web site address: Aliencamsbycch.com
Sincerely,
Colorado Custom Hardware, Inc
115 E. Lyon St
Laramie, WY 82072

Top
#17725 - 01/13/06 03:16 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: rg@ofmc]
Newman Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4
Hello,
We have called or emailed everyone who has placed a web order or special order (meaning we had their contact information) and emailed everyone on our mailing list. Beyond that, we've posted recall notices in our shop and have made an effort to tell every customer possible (we didn't tell the cross country skiier who was buying socks).
It would be helpful if you could pass this information on to those climbers out there who don't have a computer.
If you have any questions regarding the recall, feel free to contact us.
While this situation is unfortunate, it is important to remeber that almost every company we deal with has issued recalls on their products.
This situation stresses the importance of dialogue within the community - thanks for helping to spread the news.
Mike Newman
Rock & Snow

Top
#17726 - 01/13/06 03:20 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: rg@ofmc]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
Go to their website CCH Wouldn't you expect some mention of this defect / recall? I can't find anything on their website... a little odd in my opinion. I notice if you click the QUALITY link you get a broken link... almost a bad joke concerning their quality standards (which isn't so funny if someone dies on one of these things). I could never see buying gear from this company.

Top
#17727 - 01/13/06 03:26 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chazman]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

Top
#17728 - 01/13/06 03:37 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: d-elvis]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
that's not cch's website. cch has something like http://aliencamsbycch.com/ as their website...

strange isn't it?

I'm glad that the guys at R&S are doing such a proactive and thorough job at informing the local community. That is exactly the kind of effort that I've come to expect from R&S and why they remain one of my favorite gear stores in the world.

I wonder if somebody's posted something at the Uberfall. Although, i wonder what language you'd have to speak not to hear about this...

Top
#17729 - 01/13/06 03:40 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: d-elvis]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
Quote:

http://www.aliencams.com/recall.html



You found this link on their website? I can't find it. Is this some page they put out to cover their ass that is just floating on the web that you would need to specifically google "failed climbing cams" to locate? Boy , this company gives me the warm fuzzy

Top
#17730 - 01/14/06 05:06 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chazman]
raelian Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Jersey City
Company's original post from last week on Rock Climb.com

"The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious .
An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax.
The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye.
David Waggoner at CCH"

????

Top
#17731 - 01/14/06 07:30 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: raelian]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
This really has to be one of the worst PR gaffes ever. And meanwhile, in spite of their statement that:

There will be a photograph on our web site to help to identify the cams that need to be returned. The Web site address: Aliencamsbycch.com

I just checked the site and these's still no mention of the recall. Truly disappointing, from a company whose products so many people on this site have held in such high esteem.
_________________________
So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

Top
#17732 - 01/15/06 09:52 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GeeVee]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Here is some additional information from CCH:

"[CCH], 115 Lyon St. Laramie, WY 82072
Phone (307)721-9385 Fax (307) 721-9375

Since the report on Rock Climbing.com regarding a cable pullout on an orange Alien was posted, i have done extensive testing to determine if a problem does exist. I have found that there are faulty brazes on some cams. The cable eyes brazed by a contractor are marked with a small center punch dimple at the base of the round ball where the axle goes through the eye. Please return any Aliens with this mark to CCH for replacement. We apologize for this QA lapse and we are doing everything possible to correct the problem. Most units effected in this recall are 1.5, 2 and 2.5 but a smaller number of other sizes have also come from the contractor. CCH has always work[ed] hard to assure the absolute quality of every cam, so this revelation is very unfortunate.

Sincerely:
David Waggoner"

Top
#17733 - 01/15/06 09:57 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GeeVee]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
From the response at CCH, it seems that the legend is true: a company of a few climbers, making a good product, with little regard for anything more than enough money to keep climbing. These are not your typical bussinessmen, and are likely in over their heads for a situation like this. Makes you appreciate what a stellar company Black Diamond and others really are, regardless of whether you like a particular product they make or not.

Top
#17734 - 01/15/06 10:45 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chip]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

From the response at CCH, it seems that the legend is true: a company of a few climbers, making a good product, with little regard for anything more than enough money to keep climbing. These are not your typical bussinessmen, and are likely in over their heads for a situation like this. Makes you appreciate what a stellar company Black Diamond and others really are, regardless of whether you like a particular product they make or not.




And if I were BD right now, I would be sending some fairly seniorish business people knocking on CCH's door to understand how we could "help" CCH out of this unfortunate situation.


Top
#17735 - 01/16/06 01:15 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: strat]
Steven Cherry Offline

veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1300
Loc: New York, N.Y.
And if I were BD right now, I would be sending some fairly seniorish business people knocking on CCH's door to understand how we could "help" CCH out of this unfortunate situation.

I had the same thought, and as far as I'm concerned, it would be an ideal solution.

Top
#17736 - 01/16/06 03:33 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Steven Cherry]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Not a good fit from BD's perspective I think. They just sunk a bunch of R&D in developing their own small cams. I'd vote for Trango or Omega to come in.

Top
#17737 - 01/16/06 03:06 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mike Rawdon]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
We were joking about this last week. I thought Petzl would be a good match since they have hardware but no cams.

Someone said CCH's patent expires next year. I don't remember reading anything about that, but if it's true, would it be worth it just to get the name?
_________________________


Top
#17738 - 01/16/06 03:54 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: quanto_the_mad]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

We were joking about this last week. I thought Petzl would be a good match since they have hardware but no cams.

Someone said CCH's patent expires next year. I don't remember reading anything about that, but if it's true, would it be worth it just to get the name?




The design is what's "worth it" in my opinion. The value of the 'brand', at this moment, is on the decline, I would say.

Mike- all the more reason for BD to tie up the alien design rather than letting it go to a competitor- come on, have you forgotten everything from your "Standard Oil" days

Top
#17739 - 01/16/06 04:53 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: strat]
raelian Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Jersey City
CHH was aware of this problem in October according to California's version of gunks.com

One post on Oct. 9 said

"I work at a shop in Truckee CA and have had 2 customers bring in orange aliens with the same problem. I called CCH and they stated that "we are uncomfortable discussing the problem"...."


See this link if interested.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=105618&f=0&b=0

Top
#17740 - 01/16/06 05:05 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: raelian]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
No. The older posts in that thread concern a different defect. Only the newer posts are about the latest more serious and less detectable defect.



Top
#17741 - 01/16/06 06:17 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
The older posts in that thread concern a different defect.

A different defect but the response from CCH would appear to reflect a consistent lack of concern for the customer.
_________________________
So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

Top
#17742 - 01/16/06 06:54 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GeeVee]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I hate this. It gets my sphincter all puckered just thinking about it.

Top
#17743 - 01/16/06 08:25 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
raelian Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Jersey City
Yes, my mistake. The October discussion concerned an entirely different problem with the product.

Top
#17744 - 01/17/06 01:06 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: raelian]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Which CCH didn't handle any better, and makes me feel even less secure about their product.

The actuality is that they completely ignored obvious QC problems and even tried to ignore a complete failure of an Alien until a web mob formed on RC. The outcome we know was that mgear tested some Aliens and got poor enough results to have them pulled from their and REIs web site immediately. As I see it, the climbing community really owes mgear some loyalty.


Edited by Mark Heyman (01/17/06 01:12 AM)

Top
#17745 - 01/17/06 01:19 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
As I see it, the climbing community really owes mgear some loyalty.

Yeah, I just ordered the smallest Trango Max Cam from them. I had been thinking about getting a red alien, but...

On another note, all my aliens are relatively old and experienced (youngest one born in '02). Does anyone think I should be concerned?

Top
#17746 - 01/17/06 01:44 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: intrepid02]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
aliens had their cams done by an outside engineer. in his process he was quinching the cams after brazing. which means he was placing the cam in a water solution to rapidly cool the part. this type of method should never be used for brazing parts. the part will not get a good bond between braze alloy and housing.

the outside engineer marked all his cams with a dot (hardness tester), so if your cams do not have the dot your cams are ok.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#17747 - 01/17/06 02:31 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: intrepid02]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
Quote:

On another note, all my aliens are relatively old and experienced (youngest one born in '02). Does anyone think I should be concerned?




All of my aliens are pretty old as well and by now I must've fallen on all of them at least once (okay maybe a dozen times for my yellow). I figure that's all I need to know. I am going to check out my new green though, and I don't know about buying new ones, which is a shame because I was recently thinking about doubling a couple of sizes (and I hate metolius cams).
_________________________
GymClimbingPoser

Top
#17748 - 01/17/06 05:32 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GymClimbingPoser]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
i had my grey alien with the dimple. luckily i actually remembered where i got it from, it was a gift from REI,

I broughtit to the store, and they had no aliens on the shelves, but the people in the returns/customer service, didn't find any recall memo on them, so I doubt how widespread this info is.
_________________________
Just Call me Mr. Enthusiasm

Top
#17749 - 01/17/06 05:37 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GymClimbingPoser]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
I don't know about buying new ones, which is a shame because I was recently thinking about doubling a couple of sizes

Ditto. I have recently replaced a few small Metolius cams with Zeros because R&S doidn't have the Aliens I wanted. Since then I decided I would add new Aliens this spring. That won't happen this year.

How ironic. CCH has managed to create a scenario where the older more tested your units are the more sure you might be that they are safe. The units on my rack are probably ten years old.


Edited by Mark Heyman (01/17/06 05:40 PM)

Top
#17750 - 01/18/06 02:32 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
jdw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 219
Loc: Connecticut
Quote:

aliens had their cams done by an outside engineer. in his process he was quinching the cams after brazing. which means he was placing the cam in a water solution to rapidly cool the part. this type of method should never be used for brazing parts. the part will not get a good bond between braze alloy and housing.

the outside engineer marked all his cams with a dot (hardness tester), so if your cams do not have the dot your cams are ok.




What do you mean by "had all their cams done by an outside engineer"? Do you mean an outside brazier [sp?] It doesn't make sense that an engineer would be brazing cam wires.

And why would he use a hardness tester?

How do you know these details?

JDW

Top
#17751 - 01/18/06 02:52 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: jdw]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
My comment to that post exactly.

But more importantly - If the dots were not made by fixtureing at that contractors location, then the safety of a particlar unit is dependant on whether that contractor actully bothered to put tdots on every unit he made. Personally I assume the guy rushed, and thats why he was quenching in the first place. I'm not going to trust that he took the extra time to carefully mark his units!

Top
#17752 - 01/18/06 12:40 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chazman]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
Quote:

Quote:

http://www.aliencams.com/recall.html



You found this link on their website? I can't find it. Is this some page they put out to cover their ass that is just floating on the web that you would need to specifically google "failed climbing cams" to locate? Boy , this company gives me the warm fuzzy




Hey... look at their home page now... a recall notice. What a great idea! Boy these guys are on top of this problem.

Top
#17753 - 01/18/06 02:02 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: chazman]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
JDW

Well i'm not sure if the guy is a engineer or not, it could be the guy just has a machince shop. it's not just a brazer, it's the process of brazing. I know all about brazing, heat treating, quenching, etc.. for that's what i do for work. i have even tested brazing process for CCH and metalious using RF induction generators.

hardness tester are used for specfic applications where the hardness is critical. one job i worked on was breaker boxes have to have a certain hardness to take the switching on & off all the time. from my experience the dots are typical of a hardness test.

see when you heat metal to cherry red the metal becomes soft, using a quench water or oil solution will harden the metal. This process is NOT suited for braze application unless you do multiple heatings. When quenching the housing & braze will cool at different times and tempertures. This leads a braze that will Not adhere to the housing but will look like a good braze joint on the surface.

i found out from Rock & snow about the outsourced cams and the process they were using.

hope this helps


_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#17754 - 01/18/06 02:15 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
mark,

from my understanding the outsourced cams process was not rushed and they thought it was a good way to braze the cams using a quench. at the end of the day there is no time difference between letting the part air cool and quenching. the heating time is the critical part. also i was told that the cams where marked from the outsource co.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#17755 - 01/18/06 04:15 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
the outsourced cams process was not rushed and they thought it was a good way to braze the cams using a quench. at the end of the day there is no time difference between letting the part air cool and quenching. the heating time is the critical part. also i was told that the cams where marked from the outsource co.

Perhaps, but it is still likely easier and faster to handle them when they are cool.
That does not eliminate my concern over whether all suspect Aliens really have dots. So far it seems they were made individually by hand. This alone might be unreliable, but they were were made individually by hand by someone who was already "screwing up" in other ways.

Top
#17756 - 01/18/06 05:31 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
how you handle the hot parts doesn't matter. you still have to grab the hot part to place it in the quench solution or to lay on bench top to air cool. unless the part directly drops into the quech after the heating cycle.

as far as the dot goes i have no idea i've only seen pictures of the dot. you should be able to test your cams with bounce test. the braze bond is weak and should fail under a low force. take this with a grain a salt though, some braze strength may be stronger than others depending on the time it took to actually place the part in the quench.

imo if you are really concered about your cams send them back to CCH or have the braze joint x rayed.

hope this helps
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#17757 - 01/18/06 05:37 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
imo if you are really concered about your cams send them back to CCH or have the braze joint x rayed.

Is having the joint x-rayed a viable option for most of us? I'm sure with a little digging I could Google up some sort of metallurgy testing lab, but what would this kind of testing cost me? Without knowing any better I'd guess it would be cheaper to buy new cams.
_________________________
So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

Top
#17758 - 01/18/06 06:18 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GeeVee]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
oh f*#king christ. it's f*#king option. getting an x ray may be cheaper then a funneral. now go play in traffic.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#17759 - 01/18/06 06:26 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2081
Loc: SoCal
I stopped in at Nomad Ventures (Joshua Tree) on Monday, they had some of the recalled Aliens. The pimple/dimple is very clear and apparant, though the question of whether the outsourcer marked every single one of the cams he brazed, is still open and valid.

Personally, all of my Aliens have already proven themselves, so I'm not going to do anything with them.

Top
#17760 - 01/18/06 06:26 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
how you handle the hot parts doesn't matter. you still have to grab the hot part to place it in the quench solution or to lay on bench top to air cool

So, if I want to continue working on that cam, which one am I going to do? Quench sounds faster to me.

imo if you are really concered about your cams send them back to CCH or have the braze joint x rayed.

I don't trust CCH at the moment so sending em back there would be out of the question. X-ray? Think I'll just stick to another brand for a while.

As I posted earlier CCH has created a scenario where the older more tested your Aliens are the better you might feel about using them. The few I have are app 10 years old. But, I won't be purchasing any new this year as I expected to do.


Edited by Mark Heyman (01/18/06 06:38 PM)

Top
#17761 - 01/18/06 06:40 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Julie]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

Personally, all of my Aliens have already proven themselves, so I'm not going to do anything with them.



How? They've all held significant falls? You've vigorously bounce-tested every one?

IMHO, climbers should not have to be a gear manufacturer's QC department. Aliens are not so significantly better than other cams that we need to put up with CCH's manufacturing defects or their defensive arrogance (read CCH's initial response for reference).
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#17762 - 01/18/06 07:22 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: talus]
Timbo Online   content
addict

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
Quote:

the braze bond is weak and should fail under a low force. take this with a grain a salt though, some braze strength may be stronger than others depending on the time it took to actually place the part in the quench.





This is the crux of the matter for those with Aliens who "have tested them several times already". If the braze is either good or bad and will alwys fail under a small load (if it will fail), then no problem. If you have fallen on them already, they are probably fine. But if there are degrees of bad brazes, that fall that generated 300 N may not have generated enough force to cause failure, but if your next fall generates 2000 N, will the braze fail ?

So, my question: is this an "all or nothing" failure or would there be failure at various load limits, depending on the individual cam.

If the "dimple" ID is valid, I suppose it really does not matter.

TS
_________________________

Top
#17763 - 01/19/06 03:32 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: MarcC]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Quote:

Quote:

Personally, all of my Aliens have already proven themselves, so I'm not going to do anything with them.



How? They've all held significant falls? You've vigorously bounce-tested every one?




Heh heh... until now, all the cams on eBay are advertised as never having been fallen on. Now the only Aliens that will sell are those that have held falls!
_________________________


Top
#17764 - 01/19/06 03:36 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: MarcC]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......


Top
#17765 - 01/19/06 04:29 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: schwortz]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......



Oh, I don't know. Do pre-mass-production Friends bought from Ray count? How about the 1/2 size homemade Friends that the Jones brothers were producing? (I think I paid for one of those with a couple of six-packs in the Valley one September long ago.) Or one of the thin tri-cams at Camp 4 that eventually would become Metolius, bought and tested (unintentionally and, um, heavily) on the same day?

What I'm suggesting is that buying homemade/pre-production/experiments/prototypes is a far different ball-game than purchasing a mass-produced product from a major retail outlet like REI or MGear, where one expects modern QA/QC and production kinks to have been worked out.
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#17766 - 01/19/06 04:58 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: MarcC]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day...

buying homemade/pre-production/experiments/prototypes is a far different ball-game than purchasing a mass-produced product from a major retail outlet like REI or MGear, where one expects modern QA/QC and production kinks to have been worked out.

Ditto to the latter, and the firts has little to do with the second.

Lastly If I made my own gear I'd know how much confidence I would want to instil from it's use.


Edited by Mark Heyman (01/19/06 05:00 AM)

Top
#17767 - 01/19/06 05:50 AM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: Mark Heyman]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......

It is one thing to use gear that isn't rated and quite another to use gear that is rated but doesn't perform at the indicated rating. In the first case you know you are dealing with something whose reliability is unknown, but in the second case you have certain expectations that inform your judgements. I have used both types of gear, but I didn't climb the same way with them. It is one thing to choose to be a bad-ass pioneer, and quite another to find out after your ass is broken that you were one.

Top
#17768 - 01/19/06 02:18 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: rg@ofmc]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
Quote:

It is one thing to choose to be a bad-ass pioneer, and quite another to find out after your ass is broken that you were one.





Well stated (as usual)
_________________________
GymClimbingPoser

Top
#17769 - 01/19/06 03:00 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: schwortz]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
I've made backpacking gear, but only use it when I'm going solo. If I die due to gear malfunction, I can't sue myself. If that failure kills someone other than myself, then I'm liable for that failure and the death, and it's really not worth the risk; we live in a very litigious society. I still dabble with homemade gear to appease the pioneering spirit within me, but the fear of getting sued has quenched the desire to use it.
_________________________


Top
#17770 - 01/19/06 05:35 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: quanto_the_mad]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Fearing lawsuits more than death... Just a bit ironic and sad.

Top
#17771 - 01/19/06 06:15 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: D75]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Why? I'm not afraid of death, I've been as close as you can get without having to be resuscitated, and I've accepted it. Which is why I don't mind being out in the back country solo.

Dealing with the death of someone that could have been avoided is something else. Paying for the rest of your life when you get sued for it, well, that's a lot more painful than dying. Dyin' is easy.
_________________________


Top
#17772 - 01/19/06 08:47 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: rg@ofmc]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
Quote:

so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......

It is one thing to use gear that isn't rated and quite another to use gear that is rated but doesn't perform at the indicated rating. In the first case you know you are dealing with something whose reliability is unknown, but in the second case you have certain expectations that inform your judgements. I have used both types of gear, but I didn't climb the same way with them. It is one thing to choose to be a bad-ass pioneer, and quite another to find out after your ass is broken that you were one.





I hear what you guys are saying, and agree to a degree, but when it really comes down to it, I'd rather trust a theoretical modern QC department *and* a real live, do-it-myself, good hard bounce test on all my gear with moving parts and unseeable brazes from now on. And no, I'm not particularly upset about that fact. It'll take a tiny amount of time, and it's actually common sense now that I think of it. I'm actually pleased that CCH's fuck-up happened, and no-one got hurt. To my mind, it's a valuable wakeup call, causing me to re-think where my trust is placed. But it's your life - put trust wherever you like.

GO

Top
#17773 - 01/20/06 10:11 PM Re: ALIEN FAILURE [Re: GOclimb]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
GO





Steelers!
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  daryl512 
Sponsored