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#17712 - 01/12/06 02:29 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: crackers]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
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Yikes, sounds like there might be a serious quality control issue with recently manufactured aliens. I recently replaced my green alien, I think I'll sub it with a blue TCU for a while until more develops (but still use all of the others that I've been falling on for years). Stay tuned for a major recall.
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GymClimbingPoser
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#17714 - 01/12/06 02:18 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mark Heyman]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
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If you want to dump your aliens, PM me
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"Marriage Survivor"
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#17715 - 01/12/06 03:00 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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veteran
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
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Only Aliens I bought in 2005 were offsets. Does anyone know if this affects offsets?
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#17716 - 01/12/06 03:44 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: dalguard]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2623
Loc: brooklyn
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From the rc.com thread "We took nine units of various sizes and date stamps dating back to the earliest we had in stock which is 0605 for pull testing. Of the nine Aliens tested, three brazes failed and the cable pulled out at below the CCH-stated max strength for that size. The failures were from different sizes and date stamps, and included both Hybrid and regular Aliens. "
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#17718 - 01/12/06 05:49 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mark Heyman]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
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The orange alien is one size up from the red (...it goes to eleven...), it's about the same size as a .75 green camalot.
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GymClimbingPoser
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#17719 - 01/12/06 08:16 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: GymClimbingPoser]
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veteran
Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
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I just got a call from Rock & Snow. Very proactive of them. They said that between the cam lobes there's a thing that looks like a thermometer, like a bulb with a shaft, and at the center of the bulb on the defective ones there's a punch mark, like a dimple, very small.
I don't have an Alien here at work to check it out on so my description may be a little screwy. I was jotting down notes quickly. R&S also said you could bring yours in for inspection. However, it doesn't sound like there's a unified plan for replacement at this point. They said I could send them in to CCH myself or bring them to R&S, which I think is what I'll do because I trust them more than CCH. But how long it'll take to get replacements is anyone's guess.
He also said the problem was caused by "outsourcing." Well, we all knew outsourcing was evil.
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#17722 - 01/12/06 10:36 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: quanto_the_mad]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
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so its that tiny little dimple underneath the bulb part?
i wish i remembered where i got my orange alien. its fairly new
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Just Call me Mr. Enthusiasm
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#17723 - 01/13/06 01:53 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: CrackBoy]
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enthusiast
Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 247
Loc: NJ
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Below is a rc ref to a post from CCH with more info on returns etc... http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/104853I haven't been contacted by R&S, maybe they just haven't got to the Y's yet!
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#17724 - 01/13/06 05:21 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: ShakesALot]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2420
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
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Here is a copy of the recall letter. The picture of the center punch dimple they mention is not yet on their web site.
Colorado Custom Hardware, (CCH) has recently completed an investigation and extensive testing to identify and isolate safety issues concerning the brazing on CCH Alien cams. The safety of our customers is our number one priority.
Testing has revealed that there was a brazing issue with specific cams made after November 2004. The units to be identified are marked with a small center punch dimple at the base of the round ball where the axle goes through the cable eye. Although few failures have been reported, CCH recommends immediately discontinuing the use of any Aliens with this mark. CCH is recalling the cams with the identifying punch mark. Please return them to CCH for a new replacement unit. You can mail your cams to:
Colorado Custom Hardware, Inc
ATTN: Brazing Recall
115 E. Lyon St
Laramie, WY 82072
If you are not sure if your cams are included in the recall, please contact us at
(307)721-9385.
We sincerely apologize for this inconvenience and we are doing everything possible to correct it quickly. There will be a photograph on our web site to help to identify the cams that need to be returned. The Web site address: Aliencamsbycch.com
Sincerely,
Colorado Custom Hardware, Inc
115 E. Lyon St
Laramie, WY 82072
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#17725 - 01/13/06 03:16 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: rg@ofmc]
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stranger
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4
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Hello,
We have called or emailed everyone who has placed a web order or special order (meaning we had their contact information) and emailed everyone on our mailing list. Beyond that, we've posted recall notices in our shop and have made an effort to tell every customer possible (we didn't tell the cross country skiier who was buying socks).
It would be helpful if you could pass this information on to those climbers out there who don't have a computer.
If you have any questions regarding the recall, feel free to contact us.
While this situation is unfortunate, it is important to remeber that almost every company we deal with has issued recalls on their products.
This situation stresses the importance of dialogue within the community - thanks for helping to spread the news.
Mike Newman
Rock & Snow
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#17726 - 01/13/06 03:20 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: rg@ofmc]
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old hand
Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
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Go to their website CCH  Wouldn't you expect some mention of this defect / recall? I can't find anything on their website... a little odd in my opinion. I notice if you click the QUALITY link you get a broken link... almost a bad joke concerning their quality standards (which isn't so funny if someone dies on one of these things). I could never see buying gear from this company.
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#17728 - 01/13/06 03:37 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: d-elvis]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
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that's not cch's website. cch has something like http://aliencamsbycch.com/ as their website... strange isn't it? I'm glad that the guys at R&S are doing such a proactive and thorough job at informing the local community. That is exactly the kind of effort that I've come to expect from R&S and why they remain one of my favorite gear stores in the world. I wonder if somebody's posted something at the Uberfall. Although, i wonder what language you'd have to speak not to hear about this...
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#17729 - 01/13/06 03:40 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: d-elvis]
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old hand
Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
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Quote:
http://www.aliencams.com/recall.html
You found this link on their website? I can't find it. Is this some page they put out to cover their ass that is just floating on the web that you would need to specifically google "failed climbing cams" to locate? Boy  , this company gives me the warm fuzzy
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#17730 - 01/14/06 05:06 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: chazman]
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newbie
Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Jersey City
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Company's original post from last week on Rock Climb.com
"The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious .
An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax.
The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye.
David Waggoner at CCH"
????
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#17731 - 01/14/06 07:30 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: raelian]
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Auto Reply
Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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This really has to be one of the worst PR gaffes ever. And meanwhile, in spite of their statement that:
There will be a photograph on our web site to help to identify the cams that need to be returned. The Web site address: Aliencamsbycch.com
I just checked the site and these's still no mention of the recall. Truly disappointing, from a company whose products so many people on this site have held in such high esteem.
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.
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#17732 - 01/15/06 09:52 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: GeeVee]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2420
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
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Here is some additional information from CCH:
"[CCH], 115 Lyon St. Laramie, WY 82072
Phone (307)721-9385 Fax (307) 721-9375
Since the report on Rock Climbing.com regarding a cable pullout on an orange Alien was posted, i have done extensive testing to determine if a problem does exist. I have found that there are faulty brazes on some cams. The cable eyes brazed by a contractor are marked with a small center punch dimple at the base of the round ball where the axle goes through the eye. Please return any Aliens with this mark to CCH for replacement. We apologize for this QA lapse and we are doing everything possible to correct the problem. Most units effected in this recall are 1.5, 2 and 2.5 but a smaller number of other sizes have also come from the contractor. CCH has always work[ed] hard to assure the absolute quality of every cam, so this revelation is very unfortunate.
Sincerely:
David Waggoner"
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#17733 - 01/15/06 09:57 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: GeeVee]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2657
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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From the response at CCH, it seems that the legend is true: a company of a few climbers, making a good product, with little regard for anything more than enough money to keep climbing. These are not your typical bussinessmen, and are likely in over their heads for a situation like this. Makes you appreciate what a stellar company Black Diamond and others really are, regardless of whether you like a particular product they make or not.
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#17734 - 01/15/06 10:45 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: chip]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4241
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Quote:
From the response at CCH, it seems that the legend is true: a company of a few climbers, making a good product, with little regard for anything more than enough money to keep climbing. These are not your typical bussinessmen, and are likely in over their heads for a situation like this. Makes you appreciate what a stellar company Black Diamond and others really are, regardless of whether you like a particular product they make or not.
And if I were BD right now, I would be sending some fairly seniorish business people knocking on CCH's door to understand how we could "help" CCH out of this unfortunate situation.
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#17737 - 01/16/06 03:06 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2623
Loc: brooklyn
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We were joking about this last week. I thought Petzl would be a good match since they have hardware but no cams.
Someone said CCH's patent expires next year. I don't remember reading anything about that, but if it's true, would it be worth it just to get the name?
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#17738 - 01/16/06 03:54 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: quanto_the_mad]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4241
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Quote:
We were joking about this last week. I thought Petzl would be a good match since they have hardware but no cams.
Someone said CCH's patent expires next year. I don't remember reading anything about that, but if it's true, would it be worth it just to get the name?
The design is what's "worth it" in my opinion. The value of the 'brand', at this moment, is on the decline, I would say.
Mike- all the more reason for BD to tie up the alien design rather than letting it go to a competitor- come on, have you forgotten everything from your "Standard Oil" days 
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#17739 - 01/16/06 04:53 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: strat]
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newbie
Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Jersey City
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CHH was aware of this problem in October according to California's version of gunks.com
One post on Oct. 9 said
"I work at a shop in Truckee CA and have had 2 customers bring in orange aliens with the same problem. I called CCH and they stated that "we are uncomfortable discussing the problem"...."
See this link if interested.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=105618&f=0&b=0
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#17741 - 01/16/06 06:17 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mark Heyman]
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Auto Reply
Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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The older posts in that thread concern a different defect.
A different defect but the response from CCH would appear to reflect a consistent lack of concern for the customer.
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.
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#17742 - 01/16/06 06:54 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: GeeVee]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2657
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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I hate this. It gets my sphincter all puckered just thinking about it.
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#17743 - 01/16/06 08:25 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mark Heyman]
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newbie
Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Jersey City
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Yes, my mistake. The October discussion concerned an entirely different problem with the product.
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#17747 - 01/17/06 02:31 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: intrepid02]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
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Quote:
On another note, all my aliens are relatively old and experienced (youngest one born in '02). Does anyone think I should be concerned?
All of my aliens are pretty old as well and by now I must've fallen on all of them at least once (okay maybe a dozen times for my yellow). I figure that's all I need to know. I am going to check out my new green though, and I don't know about buying new ones, which is a shame because I was recently thinking about doubling a couple of sizes (and I hate metolius cams).
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GymClimbingPoser
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#17748 - 01/17/06 05:32 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: GymClimbingPoser]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
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i had my grey alien with the dimple. luckily i actually remembered where i got it from, it was a gift from REI,
I broughtit to the store, and they had no aliens on the shelves, but the people in the returns/customer service, didn't find any recall memo on them, so I doubt how widespread this info is.
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Just Call me Mr. Enthusiasm
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#17750 - 01/18/06 02:32 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: talus]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 219
Loc: Connecticut
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Quote:
aliens had their cams done by an outside engineer. in his process he was quinching the cams after brazing. which means he was placing the cam in a water solution to rapidly cool the part. this type of method should never be used for brazing parts. the part will not get a good bond between braze alloy and housing.
the outside engineer marked all his cams with a dot (hardness tester), so if your cams do not have the dot your cams are ok.
What do you mean by "had all their cams done by an outside engineer"? Do you mean an outside brazier [sp?] It doesn't make sense that an engineer would be brazing cam wires.
And why would he use a hardness tester?
How do you know these details?
JDW
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#17752 - 01/18/06 12:40 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: chazman]
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old hand
Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
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Quote:
Quote:
http://www.aliencams.com/recall.html
You found this link on their website? I can't find it. Is this some page they put out to cover their ass that is just floating on the web that you would need to specifically google "failed climbing cams" to locate? Boy , this company gives me the warm fuzzy
Hey... look at their home page now... a recall notice. What a great idea! Boy these guys are on top of this problem.
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#17757 - 01/18/06 05:37 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: talus]
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Auto Reply
Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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imo if you are really concered about your cams send them back to CCH or have the braze joint x rayed.
Is having the joint x-rayed a viable option for most of us? I'm sure with a little digging I could Google up some sort of metallurgy testing lab, but what would this kind of testing cost me? Without knowing any better I'd guess it would be cheaper to buy new cams.
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.
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#17761 - 01/18/06 06:40 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Julie]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
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Quote:
Personally, all of my Aliens have already proven themselves, so I'm not going to do anything with them.
How? They've all held significant falls? You've vigorously bounce-tested every one?
IMHO, climbers should not have to be a gear manufacturer's QC department. Aliens are not so significantly better than other cams that we need to put up with CCH's manufacturing defects or their defensive arrogance (read CCH's initial response for reference).
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- Marc
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#17764 - 01/19/06 03:36 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: MarcC]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
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so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......
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#17765 - 01/19/06 04:29 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: schwortz]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
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Quote:
so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......
Oh, I don't know. Do pre-mass-production Friends bought from Ray count? How about the 1/2 size homemade Friends that the Jones brothers were producing? (I think I paid for one of those with a couple of six-packs in the Valley one September long ago.) Or one of the thin tri-cams at Camp 4 that eventually would become Metolius, bought and tested (unintentionally and, um, heavily) on the same day?
What I'm suggesting is that buying homemade/pre-production/experiments/prototypes is a far different ball-game than purchasing a mass-produced product from a major retail outlet like REI or MGear, where one expects modern QA/QC and production kinks to have been worked out.
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- Marc
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#17767 - 01/19/06 05:50 AM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: Mark Heyman]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2420
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
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so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......
It is one thing to use gear that isn't rated and quite another to use gear that is rated but doesn't perform at the indicated rating. In the first case you know you are dealing with something whose reliability is unknown, but in the second case you have certain expectations that inform your judgements. I have used both types of gear, but I didn't climb the same way with them. It is one thing to choose to be a bad-ass pioneer, and quite another to find out after your ass is broken that you were one.
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#17768 - 01/19/06 02:18 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: rg@ofmc]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
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Quote:
It is one thing to choose to be a bad-ass pioneer, and quite another to find out after your ass is broken that you were one.
Well stated (as usual)
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GymClimbingPoser
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#17769 - 01/19/06 03:00 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: schwortz]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2623
Loc: brooklyn
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I've made backpacking gear, but only use it when I'm going solo. If I die due to gear malfunction, I can't sue myself. If that failure kills someone other than myself, then I'm liable for that failure and the death, and it's really not worth the risk; we live in a very litigious society. I still dabble with homemade gear to appease the pioneering spirit within me, but the fear of getting sued has quenched the desire to use it.
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#17770 - 01/19/06 05:35 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: quanto_the_mad]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
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Fearing lawsuits more than death... Just a bit ironic and sad.
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#17771 - 01/19/06 06:15 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: D75]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2623
Loc: brooklyn
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Why? I'm not afraid of death, I've been as close as you can get without having to be resuscitated, and I've accepted it. Which is why I don't mind being out in the back country solo.
Dealing with the death of someone that could have been avoided is something else. Paying for the rest of your life when you get sued for it, well, that's a lot more painful than dying. Dyin' is easy.
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#17772 - 01/19/06 08:47 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: rg@ofmc]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2345
Loc: Boston
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Quote:
so i guess no one here wouldve been a bad ass pioneer back in the day... when people had homemade gear, or ropes and pitons that only sometimes didnt break, or some whackass ice hammer that some weird guys in california made in their garage, or russian ti screws, or cams put together with machine screws and a prayer......
It is one thing to use gear that isn't rated and quite another to use gear that is rated but doesn't perform at the indicated rating. In the first case you know you are dealing with something whose reliability is unknown, but in the second case you have certain expectations that inform your judgements. I have used both types of gear, but I didn't climb the same way with them. It is one thing to choose to be a bad-ass pioneer, and quite another to find out after your ass is broken that you were one.
I hear what you guys are saying, and agree to a degree, but when it really comes down to it, I'd rather trust a theoretical modern QC department *and* a real live, do-it-myself, good hard bounce test on all my gear with moving parts and unseeable brazes from now on. And no, I'm not particularly upset about that fact. It'll take a tiny amount of time, and it's actually common sense now that I think of it. I'm actually pleased that CCH's fuck-up happened, and no-one got hurt. To my mind, it's a valuable wakeup call, causing me to re-think where my trust is placed. But it's your life - put trust wherever you like.
GO
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#17773 - 01/20/06 10:11 PM
Re: ALIEN FAILURE
[Re: GOclimb]
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veteran
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1249
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