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#18064 - 02/08/06 05:20 PM RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase
MohonkPreserve Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 8
We are committed to providing climbers with affordable, safe access to the Gunks cliffs and want to try to briefly respond to concerns voiced in this email thread about the recent day fee increase. (Please feel free to contact us directly if you’d like a more detailed explanation. See Contact Us.

You've asked why we are increasing fees again. The cost of “doing business” has gone up significantly. Unfortunately the cost of fuel, equipment and protecting the land is quickly outpacing our ability to attract donations and grants. To provide climbers and all visitors with the same level of service, we have no choice but to increase day fees to help cover the costs. (For more on the many ways we are seeking to fund these increasing costs, see the Mohonk Preserve Annual Report.) The day fee increase has nothing to do with our Visitor Center, which was totally funded by a separate capital campaign in the late 1990s.

You've also asked why climber fees are increasing more than others. Climbing members previously paid a higher premium for accessing the Preserve than day users. Previously, climbing members paid a 70% premium in addition to their hiking membership to climb at the Preserve, while a day climber only paid 30% more than a day hiker. Now the burden is shared by day users and members.

Climbing costs more than hiking: There are significant costs related to allowing rock climbing at the Preserve – such as increased insurance and the costs of specialized rescue operations and additional facilities. We also have one of the best-trained, vertical rescue teams in the northeastern United States. This kind of training is the result of thousands of staff hours and requires state-of-the-art equipment.

We hope this answers most of the concerns you raised. Thanks very much for your support of the Preserve.


Edited by webmaster (02/08/06 05:42 PM)

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#18065 - 02/08/06 05:39 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: MohonkPreserve]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Can you please comment on the operating expenses associated with the Visitor's Center? Do revenues generated by Climber's Day Passes contribute to covering the operating expenses of the Visitor's Center?

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#18066 - 02/08/06 05:54 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: strat]
MohonkPreserve Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 8
Please see our Annual Report referenced in the last email. It shows sources and use of revenue in supporting the Preserve's operating budget. Day-to-day costs of operating the Visitor Center are of course part of the Preserve's operating budget.

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#18067 - 02/08/06 08:15 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: strat]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
First, I’d like to commend the Preserve for having the courage to engage in a public dialogue, especially one regarding the use of funds.

Second, please comment on payments made to Peter Fairweather of Fairweather Consulting. How much did the Mohonk Preserve, or its’ agents, pay Mr. Fairweather in 2004 and 2005? From which budget(s) were these payments made? As a Mohonk Preserve Life Endowment Member and neighbor, I'd very much like to know.

And to whom shall we ascribe these Mohonk Preserve posts? Glenn? Debi? Please advise.

Thank you.


Edited by Kent (02/08/06 10:19 PM)

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#18068 - 02/08/06 08:39 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: Kent]
drkodos Offline
addict

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
How Big Brotherly of the "Preserve" to post.


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#18069 - 02/10/06 03:44 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: Kent]
MohonkPreserve Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 8
Kent -

Peter Fairweather was a consultant to the 7-town Green Assets initiative until February of 2005, and was paid $28,000 for his time working with several towns from a multi-year grant of $190,000 to the Shawangunk Ridge Biodiversity Partnership. The Partnership delegated to Mohonk Preserve the responsibility to be the recipient and administrator of that grant on behalf of the Partnership, and to The Nature Conservancy the role of overseeing Fairweather’s scope and progress as a part of the responsibilities under the overall project.

Also, to answer your last question, postings on Gunks.com are the product of staff teamwork.

Just to let you know that we only have the staffing capacity to check Gunks.com every week or so and will tend to reply to groups of comments, rather than individual queries, just due to the volume of other work we have to attend to.

Thanks,

Debi Clifford, Communications Director


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#18070 - 02/10/06 10:55 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: MohonkPreserve]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Thanks again for the reply. As we climbers don't usually go into the Visitor Center, it is easy for us to feel apart from the staff there and decision making process.

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#18071 - 02/11/06 03:38 AM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: MohonkPreserve]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Debi,

Thank you for responding. It seems you are saying the Preserve paid Peter Fairweather $190,000 in 2004 and 2005. That's a lot of money. Please comment on the nature of the $190,000 of work done by Mr. Fairweather for the Preserve.

And thank you also for the clarification regarding the Preserve staff teamwork that produces your posts. Similarly, some of my posts will be the product of neighbor teamwork. As for the timing of your responses, please respond at your convenience, as will we.

Thanks,

Kent


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#18072 - 02/11/06 04:02 AM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: Kent]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

It seems you are saying the Preserve paid Peter Fairweather $190,000 in 2004 and 2005. That's a lot of money. Would you please comment on the nature of the $190,000 of work done by Mr. Fairweather for the Preserve.



No, Debi clearly said:
Peter Fairweather was a consultant to the 7-town Green Assets initiative until February of 2005, and was paid $28,000 for his time working with several towns from a multi-year grant of $190,000 to the Shawangunk Ridge Biodiversity Partnership.
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#18073 - 02/11/06 04:17 AM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: MarcC]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
And I clearly asked how much the Mohonk Preserve paid Peter Fairweather in 2004 and 2005. I didn't ask how much the Green Assets Initiative or the Shawangunk Ridge Biodiversity Partnership paid Mr. Fairweather.


Debi,

To add to my comments above, if Peter Fairweather was paid only $28,000, then what of the remaining $162,000 in the grant? What were those funds used for? Also, in a telephone conversation I had with Cara Lee of the Nature Conservancy, she stated The Nature Conservancy received a check for $50,000 from the Mohonk Preserve, after which The Nature Conservancy in turn wrote a check to Peter Fairweather for the same amount. What is the source of the disparity?

Thanks again.

Kent

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#18074 - 02/20/06 02:23 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: Kent]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
bump

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#18075 - 02/20/06 06:03 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: Kent]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
seems like ever since Thom Scheuer left; the prevserve started acting like an aggresive business. i wish Thom was still around
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#18076 - 02/20/06 06:04 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: talus]
drkodos Offline
addict

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Quote:

seems like ever since Thom Scheuer left; the prevserve started acting like an aggresive business. i wish Thom was still around




Concur. Thom was the foundation for all things climbing goodness. Still very sad to think of the loss.
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#18077 - 02/22/06 06:08 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: Kent]
MohonkPreserve Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 8
Marc -- Thanks very much for keeping this discussion in the realm of reality. Really appreciate your helping us keep the facts straight.

Kent -- I really don’t intend to get into an on-line debate about how every past grant of the Preserve’s was used: we simply don’t have the staffing to engage in such fruitless Monday-morning quarter-backing. So, I’m happy to respond to questions you have that are constructive and substantive. Otherwise, I won’t be taking the time to respond.

To answer your question about the use of the balance of the Tremaine grant, it covered the staffing, direct, and overhead costs of responding to local communities’ requests for biodiversity data; printing and distributing two brochures – one for local residents on “green” landscaping; one on community planning; and conducting and publicizing the annual Partnership lecture series.

Debi Clifford, Communications Director

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#18078 - 02/24/06 12:43 PM Re: Fifteen Dollars [Re: MohonkPreserve]
Steven Cherry Offline

veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1300
Loc: New York, N.Y.
To answer your question about the use of the balance of the Tremaine grant, it covered the staffing, direct, and overhead costs of responding to local communities’ requests for biodiversity data; printing and distributing two brochures – one for local residents on “green” landscaping; one on community planning; and conducting and publicizing the annual Partnership lecture series.

I share Kent's gratitude for your engaging in a public dialog, and his sense of wonder that every answer seems to inspire more questions.

So that's $140,000 ($190k minus $50k) for brochures? or $162,000? ($190k minus $28k).

And how many "requests for biodiversity data" were there and how much of the $190,000 was charged against that activity? Is the current discussion we're having considered "requests for financial data" and what account is it being charged against and in what amount?

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#18079 - 03/13/06 12:56 PM Frickin' theives, they are!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: MohonkPreserve]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
prices rise! but for what?

i will not pay! i promise! look for my ford wagon. catch me if you can.

15 dollars is absurd. boycott paying! climb on the week days!
in 5-7 years the price has risen from $5 to $15?!?!?! the gas prices have not risen by such a percentage, and we thought the US govt were greedy pricks!!!
they will charge for parking next. and then after that by pack weight. after that they will charge per foot of your rope! and then for bolt (YUCK!) clipping. and then............
maybe they will put in a tram to take me to my favorite climb to wait in line.......
greedy dickheads!
anyone who thinks that $15 is no big deal and i should pay it should SEND ME $15! YEAH!!! thats right all you morons who think that fess up and send me the check! come on! you think you are right, step up and pay me.....i promise to use the money for good! YEAH! just as i thought! a bunch of shit talkers. come on, pay up!

eddie is back. miss me?
har har har
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#18080 - 03/13/06 01:09 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: MohonkPreserve]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY

Climbing costs more than hiking: There are significant costs related to allowing rock climbing at the Preserve – such as increased insurance and the costs of specialized rescue operations and additional facilities. We also have one of the best-trained, vertical rescue teams in the northeastern United States. This kind of training is the result of thousands of staff hours and requires state-of-the-art equipment.




cost of specialized rescue ops? what are you talking about? a litter and a bit of extra long ropes and some pullies? how is that specialized? now if you had a chopper, that is specialized!!! the other shit is one step above the normal aid clibers rack.....and only because you may have a longer rope than most aid climbers!

best trained rescue personal? compaired to who? yosemite? alaskan rescue teams? come on. i can do everything they do and i never received this thousand of hours of training!!! and state of the art gear? like what? cams? yeah right!oh! i forgot, "you" installed state of the art bolts so now you can drop right in!!! (oh! i just read it again. in NE US! well there are ony a few major climbing areas in NE US, so you have no real competition to compare to. lets get me and a few of my aid climbing budies out there and we will see how "highly trained" you are compared to a bunch of uneducated dirtbag wall rats!)

if you want more money, just say it like this. " we are greedy people and we need more money to fuel our SUVs and to buy more shoes for your wives" this is almost acceptable as at least it is the TRUTH!

as always i stand behind my actions. i have not, do not, and will not pay you thieves. you guys are way off base with this!

eddie
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#18081 - 03/13/06 01:19 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: Eddie]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
OK Mr. Pink.

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#18082 - 03/13/06 02:04 PM Who is the thief? [Re: alicex4]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Eddie - Seems you got it backwards.
Perhaps someday your truck or rack will be stolen.
Grow up!

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#18083 - 03/13/06 03:07 PM Re: Who is the thief? [Re: D75]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
"maybe my truck or rack will be stolen".
it has happened before, maybe again. whatever i am not afraid.
"grow up"
D75 bite me! ....oh! should i be expecting $15 from you? do you need my address? my truck? my rack?
eddie
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http://oldstyleportraits.com/

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#18084 - 03/13/06 04:13 PM Re: Who is the thief? [Re: Eddie]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Eddie - Obviously my first argument was just too subtle - So let's call a spade a spade.

Your rationalization amounts to this:
The price of a good or service it too high in your opinion. Therefore theft of that good or service is justifiable, at least in your mind.

This is an anti-social and unacceptable attitude. Acting on it is criminal. Oh, you think cams should be cheaper, so steal one from Rock and Snow. Music should be cheaper. Steal from the artist. Subway should be cheaper. Do not pay.

Everybody on this board is paying 15 bucks. To pay for guys like you who do not pay their share. To pay for prisons to house, feed and clothe you when we catch you.

We should pay you! So not only is theft acceptable, but extortion as well.



Edited by D75 (03/13/06 04:25 PM)

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#18085 - 03/13/06 04:44 PM Re: Who is the thief? [Re: D75]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Land should be cheaper. So steal it from the landowners.

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#18086 - 03/13/06 05:15 PM what is the view like from your glass house? [Re: D75]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
Quote:

Eddie - Obviously my first argument was just too subtle - So let's call a spade a spade.

Your rationalization amounts to this:
The price of a good or service it too high in your opinion. Therefore theft of that good or service is justifiable, at least in your mind.

This is an anti-social and unacceptable attitude. Acting on it is criminal. Oh, you think cams should be cheaper, so steal one from Rock and Snow. Music should be cheaper. Steal from the artist. Subway should be cheaper. Do not pay.

Everybody on this board is paying 15 bucks. To pay for guys like you who do not pay their share. To pay for prisons to house, feed and clothe you when we catch you.

We should pay you! So not only is theft acceptable, but extortion as well.






D75, i will accepy personal checks, MO , or CASH.
send to eddie
249 old sateg rd saugerties NY 12477./

about time you are on board. keep paying higher taxes, outrages shipping cost, expensive prisons and all the other BS that you are too afraid to step up and say that these are "too expensive and i will not pay" and as a result it is peiople like you that let the machine continue to roll on over all of u slittle people. let me guess, you are an upstanding republican that is all for higher fees across the board cause it keeps people like you in positions that you have, namely sitting around and collecting off others under the guise that all other ideas and actions are " anti-social and unacceptable attitudes"

what ever you say almights god D75! you must be right and i must be wrong. like i have been saying. i have not ever paid and i will not ever pay. and i must thank the "dumbass follow what the man says" mentality that you have because someone must pay (in your opinion) and i am happy that you are so willing to part with your money. you must have one of the good jobs that pays alot of money, that was aquired by similar tactics that the perseve is using. do you work for the perserve? or are you a lawyer? or let me quess you are in insurance? as a matter of fact, does your employer know you are surfing personal stuff while at work? no wonder everything is so expensive. noW GET BACK TO WORK. you would not want your employer to know that you are "acting as a criminal", so now, it looks like" WE are paying YOU so not only is the theft acceptable" but in your mind it does not apply to you


you sound like a hippocrit.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK ALREADY!!!!

eddie
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http://oldstyleportraits.com/

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#18087 - 03/13/06 05:37 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: Eddie]
phil Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2627
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Quote:


now if you had a chopper, that is specialized!!!

eddie




Choppers!!! I love dem choppers!!!

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#18088 - 03/13/06 08:38 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: phil]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
Quote:

Quote:


now if you had a chopper, that is specialized!!!

eddie




Choppers!!! I love dem choppers!!!




WOAH! This price increase is casued by the SAR team all buying hogs to ride up to the cliffs on!?! That is absurd, I'm with Eddie, I will not pay the $15 to fund new Harleys for all the preserve staff. (Actually the price increase won't affect me cause I'm a member).
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GymClimbingPoser

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#18089 - 03/14/06 12:08 AM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: GymClimbingPoser]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


now if you had a chopper, that is specialized!!!

eddie




Choppers!!! I love dem choppers!!!




WOAH! This price increase is casued by the SAR team all buying hogs to ride up to the cliffs on!?! That is absurd, I'm with Eddie, I will not pay the $15 to fund new Harleys for all the preserve staff. (Actually the price increase won't affect me cause I'm a member).




LOL! great guys, thanks for the support!
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http://oldstyleportraits.com/

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#18090 - 03/14/06 04:07 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: Eddie]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
eddie, you cheap bastard! don't you owe me a beer or something?
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we're all living proof that nothing lasts

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#18091 - 03/14/06 04:50 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: nerdom]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
eddie, you cheap bastard! don't you owe me a beer or something?

Eddie owes everybody several beers. But he'll never buy them just like he won't pay for a day pass. Cheap bastard.
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#18092 - 03/14/06 06:56 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: GeeVee]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
Actually, Eddie just passed me a beer that he bought, and tells me that he's waiting for his friend Near Dumb to pay for the keg for Ed's wedding...

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#18093 - 03/16/06 02:02 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: crackers]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
well, given the ridiculous sum of money I'm throwing away on my own nuptials this fall, I wish to hell I could have just had a keg party instead . . .
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we're all living proof that nothing lasts

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#18094 - 03/16/06 02:48 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: nerdom]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Nuptuals? YOU??!!?!?!?!!!!

Finally gonna buy the cow after getting the milk for free for all these many years, eh?

Congrats in advance. I'm sure she's glad that you're finally getting married, since she'll now be eligible for your Social Security benefits (which start like what, next year? )
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#18095 - 03/16/06 03:14 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: MurphysLaw]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
(hear taps playing in the background)

Another climbing career crashing to a close
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"Marriage Survivor"

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#18096 - 03/16/06 05:31 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: d-elvis]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Jeez, everyone's at it these days............one G.com couple even tried to get me to perform their wedding ceremony!

The Reverend Barry does have a certain ring to it.........
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#18097 - 03/16/06 05:45 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: irisharehere]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
An Irish Reverend?

So, that pretty much puts you on the express elevator straight to HELL as far as the Irish Catholics are concerned, doesn't it?


If you'd like priority booking for said elevator, become a minister and perform some same-sex marriages.

It'll give ya something to do if ya happen to be up in New Paltz, since we KNOW that you don't ever climb anything anymore....
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"Flailing?" "Flail on!"

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#18098 - 03/16/06 05:52 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: irisharehere]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
what do you mean tried? the word is trying...


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#18099 - 03/17/06 12:33 AM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: crackers]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Sounds like the fella is an orange irishman.

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#18100 - 03/17/06 03:28 AM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: irisharehere]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
The Reverend Barry does have a certain ring to it.........


Dat's Father Peter to you.

Now mebbe Bishop Barrry is a different matter...
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So long as you can boogie you ain't too old.

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#18101 - 03/17/06 03:16 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: MurphysLaw]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
yes, life as I know it will be over.

I've toyed with the idea of a "recreational pre-nup" - one that says I must be allowed a certain minimum number of days for outdoor activities . . .
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#18102 - 03/17/06 03:55 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: nerdom]
andrew Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1816
Loc: Denver, CO
being married doesn't seem so bad so far. i'm still allowed to climb, ski, buy tools, and play poker with my friends. still waiting for the world to come crashing down on me.

back to the original topic, $15 a day to climb at the preserve is outrageous. i never minded the day pass fee when it was reasonable(and even subsidized eddie's day pass a couple of times), but $15 seems like more than double what i used to pay when i lived out there(memory is a bit hazy, but wasn't it $6 in the late 90s?). i imagine the increase will be used to pay for armed guards for the employees collecting the fees.

i love the climbing at the gunks, but boy am i glad that we rarely have to deal with that kind of extortion out west. hell, even the mormon church lets you climb on most of their land for no fee.
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#18103 - 03/17/06 04:53 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: nerdom]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

yes, life as I know it will be over.

I've toyed with the idea of a "recreational pre-nup" - one that says I must be allowed a certain minimum number of days for outdoor activities . . .




I'd need 120 days/year minimum.

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#18104 - 03/17/06 05:05 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: nerdom]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
Quote:

yes, life as I know it will be over.

I've toyed with the idea of a "recreational pre-nup" - one that says I must be allowed a certain minimum number of days for outdoor activities . . .


Great idea, but wouldn't reproduction nullify that?
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#18105 - 03/17/06 05:11 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: oenophore]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
I’m pretty sure Nerdom can only start the reproduction process, once that’s taken care of I see no reason why it would affect his climbing?

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#18106 - 03/17/06 05:12 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: Smike]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
you're assuming he CAN start it
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#18107 - 03/17/06 05:16 PM Re: RE: Preserve Day Fee Increase [Re: Smike]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
Quote:

I’m pretty sure Nerdom can only start the reproduction process, once that’s taken care of I see no reason why it would affect his climbing?


Try telling that to the future Mrs. Nerdom.
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