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#18179 - 02/17/06 09:15 PM Preserve neighbors speak up
MohonkPreserve Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 8


As landowners who have worked directly with Mohonk Preserve on land transactions, we would like to express our informed opinion of this upstanding organization that serves our communities in many ways. Through our own separate transactions, we have worked with the Preserve on conservation measures such as conservation easements or gifts and sales of land to help increase the amount of open, protected space on the ridge.

We choose to work with the Preserve because of its integrity and shared commitment to the protection of the natural resources that create the uniqueness of our region. Through the Preserve’s Land Protection Program, we have been able to include our lands in the legacy of the Shawangunk Ridge to benefit our communities’ future generations.

In addition to fully endorsing the Preserve’s Land Protection Program, we also support the Preserve for its dedication to land stewardship, field research, and the education of thousands of students annually, and for providing peaceful recreational opportunities.

June Finer
Anka Angrist
Burt Angrist
Sven Hartmann
Connie Beckley
Paul Karmas
Lucy Karmas
Fran Dunwell
Barbara Rubin
Gloria Finger
Frank Finger
Gary Finger
Nicola Tyson
Bob Anderberg
Elaine Laflamme
Dr. Stephen Larsen
Dr. Robin Larsen
James Milne
Judy Milne
Mary Davis
Jesse Davis
Bob Johnston
Virginia Johnston
Sarah Johnston




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#18180 - 02/20/06 02:22 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: MohonkPreserve]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
It's wonderful that the above neighbors have such a favorable opinion of the Preserve. Hopefully one day all MP neighbors will have good cause to form such an opinion.

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#18181 - 02/21/06 06:48 AM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Kent]
drkodos Offline
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Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Excuse my bluntness (or don't !! -- your choice) but, when you post it as an advertisement of the Mohonk Preserve and under the USER ID Mohonk Preserve it comes across as complete political bullsheet. No value at all to anyone. Just makes you look like a fool and a tool.

Now, if those people themselves took the time to actually write a document and make it public I would lend it more creedence.

Until that time, this shameless PR stunt is labled LAME CORPORATE MANUEVERING and drokodos gives it three butt cheek spankings on a scale of 1 to 4.


And stop sending me the pretentious and annoying "CHALLENGE" letters to grab more of my money. SELL that White Elephant you have sitting under the Hairpin or make some better investment decisions.





Edited by drkodos (02/21/06 06:49 AM)
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#18182 - 02/21/06 06:55 AM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: drkodos]
drkodos Offline
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Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
I am convinced more than ever that some major shennanigens are brewing and these little PR forays are out here testing the waters before the excrement is tossed onto rotating blades.


So, what you peeps got up your sleeves this time, eh?

Listen if you really wanted to PRESERVE it shut it down to all human traffic. Since that is clearly not the case, stop pretending it ain't about the money. You ain't fooiing anyone anymore. You have become a corporate entity masquerading as some benvolent dictator. The newest shift in corporate raiding manuevers. Take over Land trusts and Nature preserves and the like from withion and change the economic infrastructure of the beast, and then find ways to grow some nice annuities (like you peeps love to invest in).


You ain't fooling very many people. Then again, after reading boards like this, and the plethora of boobery that passes as discouse here, maybe you are!

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#18183 - 02/21/06 01:53 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: drkodos]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

Excuse my bluntness (or don't !! -- your choice) but, when you post it as an advertisement of the Mohonk Preserve and under the USER ID Mohonk Preserve it comes across as complete political bullsheet. No value at all to anyone. Just makes you look like a fool and a tool.





It is unclear to me whether you are referring to the group who posted this thread (some of whom have Gunks first ascents from the '50s & '60s and who have owned ridge property for decades) or to the Preserve's responses in general.

I am not sure why you regard the Preserve's keeping tabs on a public discussion board as peeping, especially when some threads relate to or question Preserve policy/operations by its members and largest user group. On several occasions they have been asked questions directly, and it seems to me it is prudent that they respond. Some of the responses have been signed by the Executive Director, the Board Chair, or the Communications Director, sometimes they do appear only as the Mohonk Preserve.

In the interest of transparency, it would be forthcoming for all of the Preserve's responses to be signed.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#18184 - 02/21/06 01:54 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: drkodos]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Kodos

Kenneth Lay is MohonkPreserve
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#18185 - 02/21/06 02:33 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: yorick]
drkodos Offline
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Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Quote:

Quote:

Excuse my bluntness (or don't !! -- your choice) but, when you post it as an advertisement of the Mohonk Preserve and under the USER ID Mohonk Preserve it comes across as complete political bullsheet. No value at all to anyone. Just makes you look like a fool and a tool.





It is unclear to me whether you are referring to the group who posted this thread (some of whom have Gunks first ascents from the '50s & '60s and who have owned ridge property for decades) or to the Preserve's responses in general.

I am not sure why you regard the Preserve's keeping tabs on a public discussion board as peeping, especially when some threads relate to or question Preserve policy/operations by its members and largest user group. On several occasions they have been asked questions directly, and it seems to me it is prudent that they respond. Some of the responses have been signed by the Executive Director, the Board Chair, or the Communications Director, sometimes they do appear only as the Mohonk Preserve.

In the interest of transparency, it would be forthcoming for all of the Preserve's responses to be signed.





Nice Corpo Speak.


You have completely misread and misrepesented the point by assuming I care about them "peeping". Where the fornicate did I use that word, "peep"?

Something major is brewing. Their post was a preemptive action regarding something that ythey have not yet disclosed.

Anyone that trusts these fools deserves what they get in their end.
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#18186 - 02/21/06 03:19 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: drkodos]
GeeVee Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Where the fornicate did I use that word, "peep"?

I believe Yorick was responding to your statement:

So, what you peeps got up your sleeves this time, eh?

I also believe you were using the word "peeps" as shorthand for "people" but this was perhaps misunderstood by Yorick.

Now back to the mudslinging...
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#18187 - 02/21/06 04:41 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: drkodos]
GymClimbingPoser Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 285
Loc: Logan, UT
Kodos-
I can see straight through your pinko-paranoia plot. What have you got up yer sleeve this time? I'm onto your master plan to erode support for the preserve while building your own influence in the all-important climbing community. Yessir, you and your intricate conspiracy almost slipped by me, but you have to get up preeeeety early in the morning to escape my watchdog eyes.

Oh, and good to hear that some of the preserve neighbors are happy, kudos to all.
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#18188 - 02/21/06 05:26 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: GymClimbingPoser]
Kent Offline
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
some of the preserve neighbors are happy

emphasis on some

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#18189 - 02/21/06 06:17 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Kent]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
kent don't you know there is a difference between property ridge owners and property ridge owners with gunks FA from 50 & 60's
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#18190 - 02/21/06 06:21 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: drkodos]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
You have completely misread and misrepesented the point by assuming I care about them "peeping".

Indeed, I have. And your Big Brotherly suggestion was, I guess, props for mentoring?

Something major is brewing. Their post was a preemptive action regarding something that ythey have not yet disclosed.

Which post?

_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#18191 - 02/21/06 06:31 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: talus]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Quote:

kent don't you know there is a difference between property ridge owners and property ridge owners with gunks FA from 50 & 60's




Point being that some neighbors have had favorable relations with the Trust/Preserve since its inception. Others have had strained relationships with them for just as long.

Are the contrasts not instructive?
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#18192 - 02/21/06 09:19 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: yorick]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Chris, please illuminate for us how the contrasts are instructive.

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#18193 - 02/22/06 06:02 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: yorick]
MohonkPreserve Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 8
Yorick-

Thanks for understanding that we’re just trying to be responsive to concerns that have been raised. I’ll happily sign responses in future, but they’re usually developed collaboratively anyway.

Due to staffing and time limitations, we’ll try to stay responsive, but will only be able to check in occasionally and respond to questions or issues raised by more than one posting.

Richard (drkodos) -

As to the landowner letter, we posted it since the Preserve is registered on Gunks.com and it just seemed easier than having one of the signers handle that. Sorry if that offended, but these are folks who have successfully done land trust transactions with the Preserve and their words still stand.

Debi Clifford, Communications Director



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#18194 - 02/22/06 06:10 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Kent]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Kent,

I simply think its instructive to have as many informed voices and opinions represented here as possible, to question and measure responses from every side. In a best case scenario, this is an opportunity to create and participate in a kind of open-ended town meeting on ridge issues. The thing tends to boom with random, cogent shots across the bow followed by dribble. It's frustrating that we can't maintain a decent, cogent volley.

_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#18195 - 02/22/06 06:41 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: MohonkPreserve]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Thank you, Debi. While I think it's understood that the Preserve's responses are collaborative, having them signed by the writer(s) removes the distancing imprimatur that Mohonk Preserve engenders. It stops feeling like we're engaged with a monolith.
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#18196 - 03/05/06 10:36 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: MohonkPreserve]
Pamela Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Gardiner NY
I am a new member, and poster. I've been encouraged by one of your long term members to come here be active since I am a property owner in Gardiner. As far as the Mohonk Preserve is concerned, I find that it has a very one-way relationship with the town of Gardiner and the people who live here. other than a "free" pass to hike there for one weekend a year, and an occasional bone thrown to our volunteer fire department, the preserve is all take and no give.

Hundreds of thousands of visitors go through there a year, stomping around the ridge. They pay little to no taxes to contribute to our roads or infrastructructure. If you really wanted to "preserve it", why not just close it off to all traffic?

Oh, and the GFD Womans Auxiliary is trying raise money for some new equipment. If you were really such a good neighbor, you'd donate the $700 they are trying to raise.

maybe I'm misinformed....so, prove me wrong.

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#18197 - 03/06/06 02:32 AM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Pamela]
dalguard Offline
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I don't think you're going to find much support for the idea of closing the Gunks to traffic here.

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#18198 - 03/06/06 03:01 AM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Pamela]
GeeVee Offline
Auto Reply

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Misinformed, possibly.

How do you propose to tax these visitors? Is it not enough that we already spend money at local businesses?

Did Kent encourage you to post?
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#18199 - 03/06/06 12:38 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: GeeVee]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

Misinformed, possibly.

How do you propose to tax these visitors? Is it not enough that we already spend money at local businesses?

Did Kent encourage you to post?




I sure hope Pamela doesn't drive outside of the town of Gardiner, because I'm quite sure she doesn't pay taxes that the support the roads in other townships..... [rolling my eyes]

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#18200 - 03/06/06 04:06 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: strat]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Hundreds of thousands of visitors go through there a year, stomping around the ridge. They pay little to no taxes to contribute to our roads or infrastructructure.

The issue is simple. The preserve has something that people will pay for. The town of Gardiner has very little, except for its “main” roads that cross the township which are entirely under control and funding of the state (I.e. RT 44/55) I being a homeowner next to Gardiner township have almost no reason to spend money in the town of Gardiner or Gardiner township except for dinners at the Mt. Brauhaus and an occasional need to stop at the Mt. Deli. The town of Gardiner and its residents (at least some) have made it clear they wish not to provide services that would draw money from visitors. I do not see any problems with saying no to development, but you can’t also keep the people from entering your township as well. The U.S. has long since grown from the days of colonies and territory’s.

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#18201 - 03/06/06 04:17 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Smike]
Pamela Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Gardiner NY
Ok, I said it badly the first time. I'm not suggesting that visitors to Mohonk pay taxes. (Oh, and actually I do pay taxes for roads outside Gardiner...it's called county, state, federal taxes in the form of tolls, property taxes, usage taxes such as for every gallon of gas I buy, etc. )

I'm suggesting that most property owners in Gardiner pay more than their fair share of the local tax burdan, and Mohonk does not. It's that simple, and that unfair.
If they accept vistors, and charge them to use the land, which they do, then they (Mohonk Preserve) should be charged as any other commercially zoned property.

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#18202 - 03/06/06 04:40 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Pamela]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
Except if they had to pay taxes they could not afford to operate and would need to sell the land, probably to someone who would build 300 houses and a golf course.

As I recall, this was the problem the Smiley's faced when they gave away the land to begin with. You can't afford the taxes on that much land if it is not producing income.

I know is tough to take for those living nearby, especially if the Preserve continues to acquire land, thereby lowering the taxable acreage.

You could allow development and let the businesses pay taxes, but then you lose the quiet (well, such as it is with 299 and all) rural community setting. The town has made it clear they do not want to go down this road, denying all development.

Just curious, would the residents feel a bit more friendly to the Preserve if the Preserve offered free membership to all Gardiner residents ? At least then there would be a trade. Residents pay an increased tax burden, but they get to use the land for free. I know the taxes are far greater than a $100 membership, but it's a start, right ?

Anyway, I'm a foreigner; maybe I should just remain silent.

TS


Edited by Timbo (03/06/06 05:16 PM)
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#18203 - 03/06/06 05:05 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Pamela]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Might you say that proximity to the Preserve enhances property value without affecting assessed valuation?
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#18204 - 03/06/06 05:47 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Pamela]
GeeVee Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 4403
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
(Oh, and actually I do pay taxes for roads outside Gardiner...it's called county, state, federal taxes in the form of tolls, property taxes, usage taxes such as for every gallon of gas I buy, etc. )

And by the same logic those of us who live elsewhere in the state are paying for Gardiner's roads - however I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to drive through Brooklyn. And even though I'm only a short distance from the Brooklyn Botanic Garden I'm not going to spend my time pissing and moaning that it drains the tax base because it's also a not-for-profit entity, nor am I going to suggest that in return they should should give everyone in Brooklyn free access.
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#18205 - 03/06/06 07:39 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: GeeVee]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
Quote:


And by the same logic those of us who live elsewhere in the state are paying for Gardiner's roads - however I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to drive through Brooklyn. And even though I'm only a short distance from the Brooklyn Botanic Garden I'm not going to spend my time pissing and moaning that it drains the tax base because it's also a not-for-profit entity, nor am I going to suggest that in return they should should give everyone in Brooklyn free access.




No, but playing devil's advocate here, if the Botanic Garden bought up or took over half of Brooklyn, tore down all buildings and turned it into a large botanical garden preventing development and eliminating the majority of the tax base, thereby greatly increasing your tax burden, then how would you feel ? Yes, you have a very nice large park next door, but now your taxes have multipied by maybe 3-5 times (or more).

Is this a defensible position ? I don't know, but it's worth pondering.
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#18206 - 03/06/06 07:45 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: Timbo]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

No, but playing devil's advocate here, if the Botanic Garden bought up or took over half of Brooklyn, tore down all buildings and turned it into a large botanical garden preventing development and eliminating the majority of the tax base, thereby greatly increasing your tax burden, then how would you feel ? Yes, you have a very nice large park next door, but now your taxes have multipied by maybe 3-5 times (or more).

Is this a defensible position ? I don't know, but it's worth pondering.




If it happened next week? Maybe not - I don't know, either. But regarding the Preserve (originally Trust), we are talking about a conservation easement and tax agreement that happened about 50 years ago. I find it shockingly naive for any Gardiner resident to be railing about it now.

[Edited to fix crappy spelling]


Edited by MarcC (03/07/06 02:08 AM)
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#18207 - 03/06/06 10:36 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: MarcC]
dalguard Offline
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Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Besides, I thought Gardiner was anti-development, which is how all this hullabaloo started. I can't keep track of it all and as a climber, my sole interest and concern is with preserving climbing access. I'm fond of Kent but I don't appreciate a climbing forum being used to attack the Preserve over non-climbing issues. As long as the Preserve is pro-climber I'm going to lean towards being pro-Preserve.

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#18208 - 03/06/06 11:23 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: dalguard]
pedestrian Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Dawn--

I think there are at least a few people in Gardiner who are anti-development in principle, but who nonetheless had a bad taste left in their mouths by the practical effects of the zoning proposal. These people were in favor of development limitations in the beginning, but were rather surprised when the proposal came back and said "above x feet altitude." When they realized that these restrictions might have real economic effects on real people.

Faced with such a quandary, what's a tree hugger to do? Well, it seems that members of the town board are willing to let the matter be settled by the courts: if someone can stand up and show that they suffered a hardship, they may have a case.

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#18209 - 03/07/06 05:13 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: pedestrian]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 364
Of course, if the Botanical Garden took over half of Brooklyn, total government expenditures would drop:
number of homes would drop by around half, meaning that:
number of students in the school system would drop by half
sewerage to be maintained would drop
roads to be repaved would drop
number of pets would drop, so stray dogs would drop, so number of dogcatchers would drop
etc.
So the tax rate shouldn't change all that much. (Half the expenditures divided by half the population = same rate)

Commercial activity implies that the activity is supposed to make money. Which is different from cost recovery. If I lend you my car for a year, and you give me $100 at the end to pay for the now-needed oil change, new spark plugs, car wash, and new clutch, it's hardly profitable for me.

If you believe the Preserve's tax status should be rescinded, then say so. That's a different kettle of fish.

Or do you mean that all non-profits should pay tax, including churches, the United Way, the Red Cross, the PTA, Scout camps, etc.?

Or are you saying that the minimum size of government of Gardiner is too big for such a small population and thus imposing an unreasonable tax burden - in which case maybe Gardiner should try merging with Shawangunk or something, to eliminate duplication of expenses.

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#18210 - 03/13/06 07:39 PM Ends Justify Means [Re: dalguard]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Besides, I thought Gardiner was anti-development, which is how all this hullabaloo started. I can't keep track of it all and as a climber, my sole interest and concern is with preserving climbing access. I'm fond of Kent but I don't appreciate a climbing forum being used to attack the Preserve over non-climbing issues. As long as the Preserve is pro-climber I'm going to lean towards being pro-Preserve.

Dawn, your position is an "ends justifies the means" argument. It would be like someone saying "As a driver, my sole concern is with preserving cheap gasoline. As long as George Bush is pro-cheap gas I'm going to lean towards being pro George Bush". Implicitly, no matter the deceptions or the abuse of politcal power. The consequences of GW's behvavior are in a different realm than those of the Preserve's behavior, and I'm not equating them, but the principle is the same. You are saying no matter the behavior of the Preserve, you will blindly support them. Why? Just as one can be patriotic and still critical of this administrations foreign policy, so too can one be pro Preserve and still critical of some of their policies regarding landowners around them.

One could make the argument, as some have, that climbing community blindness to the MP's behavior towards their neighbors, and the passage of the Gardiner Ridge Zoning Law, will make it more likely ridge owners will sell, ostensibly to OSI or MP or TNC or TPL or whomever, and at a lower price. If the Preserve ends up with the land, the argument follows, then that would be better for climbers. But the Preserve may not end up with the land as a consequence of their behavior and the blind eye of members of our community to the plight of ridgeowners. For example, there is a significant piece of land in the Nears that is currently for sale. The Preserve has weighed in with their usual extreme low ball number, and so the property is going on the open market. Their will be other pieces of land important to climbers coming on the market in the next few years and some sellers are angry enough about what has happened that they want to place restrictive covenants in their deeds to prohibit Preserve ownership in perpetuity. So those pieces may end up in the hands of agencies or organizations that don't allow climbing access, in perpetuity. Blind support of the Preserve might not be such a good idea after all.

Where is the Gunks Climbers Coalition in all of this? Nowhere. The Carolina Climber's Coalition and the Access Fund, to their great credit, have mobilized the Carolinas climbing community to enable the respectful purchase of Laurel Knob in North Carolina. Here at home, our Gunks Climber's Coalition is strangely silent as part of the Near Trapps goes on the open market and the Preserve wings their low balls. There are several members of the GCC steering committee that I both like and respect. I feel badly for them in having to defend their leadership, a leadership that, with their silence, has effectively made the GCC into the PFTP....Poodles for the Preserve. Another new slogan in the offing....."The PFTP, coming quietly to heel for the Mohonk Preserve".

Last summer I gave the names of critically important landowners to the GCC Chair at a steering committee meeting. To my knowledge no one from the GCC has ever contacted those neighbors directly. Instead the GCC seems to be relying on the Preserve's representation of it's supposedly rosey relationships with it's neighbors. My advice to the GCC is this. Don't rely on the Preserve's representation of neighbor opinions, or my representation either. Speak with neigbhors directly. If you need introductions, I'll gladly facilitate where i can

And the hullabaloo in Gardiner isn't about anti-development but rather about the fair and equitable distribution of the costs of being anti-development. Personally, I'm ecstatic that Gardiner is anti-development. That the town board, with the help of the Mohonk Preserve, has placed such a great burden on so few people on the ridge (MP neighbors-what a coinkidink!), at least some of whom are elderly and unable to advocate in their own interest, is shameful.

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#18211 - 03/13/06 08:22 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Quote:

Their will be other pieces of land important to climbers coming on the market in the next few years and some sellers are angry enough about what has happened that they want to place restrictive covenants in their deeds to prohibit Preserve ownership in perpetuity.




More blackmail from ridgeowners directed at the climbing community.

I wish them luck getting those covenants into their deeds. Given the volatile political climate in Gardiner, no responsible buyer should agree to such a restriction, for some of the same reasons that landowners are currently unwilling to accept the proposed new zoning restrictions.

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#18212 - 03/13/06 08:36 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Again, I reference Laurel Knob. There was some illicit climbing going on there at one point. The landowner said, and I paraphrase, "land closed until purchased". The climbing community leaders there negotiated a purchase, and rallied the community to raise the funds.

It's a different situation here and startlingly so in that any suggestion that climbers might not have climbing access is considered blackmail, at least by some. The local sense of entitlement to access, that some have, is astounding.

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#18213 - 03/13/06 08:40 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Entitlement? No.

Listen up here comes your lesson in tactics Kent.

If your goal is for climbers to buy your land to secure access, then aggressively telling them "you can't give an easement to the preserve" is going to be seen to be a complete deal breaker.

So would you care to try again?

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#18214 - 03/13/06 08:58 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Nate, my goal is to advocate in the interest of landowners, especially those that aren't in a position to advocate for themselves. To that end I make clear to all, as factually as I can, the behavior of the preserve in the hope they will one day stop bullying their neighbors. Communicating the possible consequences of MP bullying is hardly blackmail.

I'm not trying to get the local climbing community to buy land any longer. That's a lost cause. The GCC's negligence however in even speaking with neighbors upon whose land their members climb, seems a rather egregious oversight under the circumstances.

And thanks for your offer of a lesson in tactics Nate. There are, however, others I think I would be better off learning from.

See you around.

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#18215 - 03/13/06 09:06 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Quote:


I'm not trying to get the local climbing community to buy land any longer. That's a lost cause. The GCC's negligence however in even speaking with neighbors upon whose land their members climb, seems a rather egregious oversight under the circumstances.




I can envision a few scenarios under which it still might happen. A purchase with a stipulation of "no conservation easements" is not one of those.

Your "factual" information has so far amounted to mere consipracy theories involving Mr. Fairweather. As I understand it, the Preserve has played an advisory role at best in the zoning process. The citizens of Gardiner are ultimately responsible for the outcome of that process, and nobody on your side has apparently stepped up with a counter proposal.

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#18216 - 03/13/06 09:14 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
That's what the Preserve wants everyone to think, that any criticism of them is merely conspiracy theory. First, they could simply quell such theory with a full accounting of payments made to Mr. Fairweather. Why don't they?

Second, for a concrete and easily verifiable example of the Preserve's misrepresentation of the facts, I invite everyone to the MP visitor center. Take a look at their model of the Preserve boundaries. All the way down the eastern escarpment of the ridge they show their property line as being well onto their neighbors property. Compare that to the tax map on Ulster County Parcel Viewer. The tax map isn't entirely accurate either, but it's much closer.

But it's a point well taken that more evidence needs presenting. And I will indeed present.

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#18217 - 03/13/06 09:16 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Also Nate, to bring you up to speed, the Gardiner Ridge Zoning Law passed back in January.

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#18218 - 03/13/06 09:39 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Hey Kent,
Kerhonkson just pass a zoning bill that does not allow for cars on blocks in my back yard. Sorry to say were going to have to set up a toll outside on rt 44/55 and stop Gardiner residence from passing through, unless you can help defeat this?

Thanks for your support.

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#18219 - 03/13/06 09:44 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Smike]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Second, for a concrete and easily verifiable example of the Preserve's misrepresentation of the facts, I invite everyone to the MP visitor center. Take a look at their model of the Preserve boundaries. All the way down the eastern escarpment of the ridge they show their property line as being well onto their neighbors property.


Come on Kent, what “official” land map does that represent?

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#18220 - 03/13/06 09:57 PM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Quote:

Also Nate, to bring you up to speed, the Gardiner Ridge Zoning Law passed back in January.




You know, that's unfortunate. The zoning law sucks.

I still think you spent way too much time antagonizing the Preserve and, separately, antagonizing climbers; and not enough time fighting against the zoning proposal within the legitimate realm of due process.

You've spread a lot of allegations about the Preserve but most of the rest of us have little choice but to perceive it as he-said-she-said.

Unfortunately fighting the zoning proposal would have meant developing a counter proposal and probably the sad fact of the matter is that doing so would have cost money.

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#18221 - 03/14/06 12:47 AM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: pedestrian]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
I just got down off the ridge. It's very slick up there, even just scrambling. Last night though it was amazingly beautiful. Bright moonlight shining down through dense fog in the woods.

Regarding landowner particpation in the law; we went to and spoke at Zoning Advisory Committee Meetings and Town Board Meetings for over a year. Landowners came up with lots of suggestions as part of the zoning law development process, a very small number of which were adopted. Each substantive concession to landowners was accompanied by even more substantive additional restrictions that outweighed concessions. At the end of the day we were a small handful of landowners against Stealtheridge, the Mohonk Preserve, and a great many people who asked no sacrifice of themselves. As someone once said here on gunks.commies, "regulatory takings are a great idea as long as it's not your land being taken". So that's the law of the land in Gardiner for now. The pendulum will swing though, as it inevtiably does. The only problem is that the elderly on the ridge who are most severely affected will probably be dead and gone by then.

As for antagonizing the Preserve board and management, if the shoe fits, they are going to have to wear it. If they bully their neighbors you can count on reading about it here on gunks.com. I'm all ears if they want to dialog, either here or in person, but it seems like they are consumed by their own spin. Anytime they are subjected to legitimate criticism and earnest questioning, they offer prevaricating corpo speak and/or they then withdraw. It's neither genuine nor convincing.

Most climbers have been very supportive. Some I've talked to at length and some have even met a few of my affected neighbors so maybe it's easier for them to walk a mile in our shoes. There are a very few climbers who seemingly have a very strong sense of entitlement to other peoples land. I invite them to move to Cuba. I hear there is some good climbing there.

I don't count you among the aforementioned future Cuban Climbers Coalition Nate. You are still welcome to borrow my ice tools if we ever have ice again. I don't place Eddie in that group either. He gets a free pass for his sheer audacity.

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#18222 - 03/14/06 12:51 AM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Smike]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Kerhonkson just pass a zoning bill that does not allow for cars on blocks in my back yard.

Smike, I kind of like cars on blocks. It helps create the true country look of a rural community, rather than the leafy, oh so carefully designer designed, PC faux country look of New Westchester (towns around the Preserve). Old junk cars help hold down property values too, so people who actually work in the community might be able to afford to buy a house in the community. If you can't keep them, bring them over to my house in the Trapps Gateway. They will fit right in.

Edited to add:
Better yet, Rob tells me he's looking for a way to top last years Christmas light show at his house. Maybe we could stack them up in his front yard and rig them together.

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#18223 - 03/14/06 02:12 AM Re: Ends Justify Means [Re: Kent]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Better yet, Rob tells me he's looking for a way to top last years Christmas light show at his house. Maybe we could stack them up in his front yard and rig them together

Rob needs no help, hes quite the master at pyrotechnics involving his trees, down electoral lines, and fires in our front yard.

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#18224 - 04/07/06 12:04 AM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: MohonkPreserve]
smokejumper1 Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 75
Loc: NY, CA, Deutschland
Quote:



As landowners who have worked directly with Mohonk Preserve on land transactions, we would like to express our informed opinion of this upstanding organization that serves our communities in many ways. Through our own separate transactions, we have worked with the Preserve on conservation measures such as conservation easements or gifts and sales of land to help increase the amount of open, protected space on the ridge.

We choose to work with the Preserve because of its integrity and shared commitment to the protection of the natural resources that create the uniqueness of our region. Through the Preserve’s Land Protection Program, we have been able to include our lands in the legacy of the Shawangunk Ridge to benefit our communities’ future generations.

In addition to fully endorsing the Preserve’s Land Protection Program, we also support the Preserve for its dedication to land stewardship, field research, and the education of thousands of students annually, and for providing peaceful recreational opportunities.

June Finer
Anka Angrist
Burt Angrist
Sven Hartmann
Connie Beckley
Paul Karmas
Lucy Karmas
Fran Dunwell
Barbara Rubin
Gloria Finger
Frank Finger
Gary Finger
Nicola Tyson
Bob Anderberg
Elaine Laflamme
Dr. Stephen Larsen
Dr. Robin Larsen
James Milne
Judy Milne
Mary Davis
Jesse Davis
Bob Johnston
Virginia Johnston
Sarah Johnston








The Mohonk Preserve should be ashamed at the above list. Of the aprox. 200 neighbors, only 13 families signed their letter, that's just over 5%. One of the signatures is Robert Anderberg (Vice President for the Open Space Institute), who obviosly has close ties to both the MP and Glen Hoagland. I also believe Robert Larsen works for the preserve (his partner is Barbara Rubin). I don't know about the rest of the signatures on the list. Are MP's nieghborly relations so bad that they rely on employees, employee family members, and business associates to sign their letters?

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#18225 - 04/19/06 04:40 PM Re: Preserve neighbors speak up [Re: smokejumper1]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
An interesting post Smokey.

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