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#18621 - 03/19/06 01:18 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: yip]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
I’m having trouble understanding the difference in how palm-up or palm down matters in handling double ropes. I almost always belay palm down. Except for use with devices that lock off with parallel strands, why does it matter?

Brake hand: I grasp the closer rope with thumb and forefinger. And the further rope with the remaining three fingers. I can squeeze them independently or together.
Control hand: use that to help feed or pull rope from the live side.

Someone once asked me if I’d mind using one of his Tre’s. I was happy to play with one but would not have minded at all anyway. I thought it was ideal a device to hand a second you don’t know. It auto-locks and is easy to release. For use with doubles the only real issue is cost, app $65. I bought two shortly after that – though I have to admit that for other reasons I haven’t climbed on doubles much since then.


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#18622 - 03/19/06 04:52 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: Mark Heyman]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2082
Loc: SoCal
About TREs - Scott got one, and loved it for a while ... until he tested the auto-locking capability at the end of a rap, and ended up with his butt on the ground. He's back to a tube-style now. We use double 9s. Caveat emptor.

About palm down/up - I agree with Mark, if you really know how to manage ropes, it doesn't matter. When belaying a second, I use palm-down, two fingers on each rope, and use the other hand to pull the rope through the device as necessary.

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#18623 - 03/19/06 06:04 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: Julie]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
About TREs - Scott got one, and loved it for a while ... until he tested the auto-locking capability at the end of a rap, and ended up with his butt on the ground. He's back to a tube-style now. We use double 9s. Caveat emptor

That's scary. I have used mine without that problem - yet!

See below.



Edited by Mark Heyman (03/19/06 07:33 PM)

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#18624 - 03/19/06 07:05 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: Mark Heyman]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
The TRE does not autolock, except when holding leader falls on 10mm+ ropes. Even in that case, it should never be viewed as a hands-off device.

It is important to understand how it works: rope pressure pulls the crosspiece towards the ends of the slots and pinches the rope. So perhaps the right way to think of it is as a variable-resistance device. As the load increases so does the force multiplying braking effect. With doubles, you still get enough force to stop leader falls with the usual amount of hand pressure, without having to move your hand to a lock-off position.

When it comes to rappelling, the TRE is ok but not ideal. Never never never count on it to lock off. How much locking effect you'll get depends on how much pressure the cross piece exerts which in turn depends on the weight of rope hanging from the device. Near the bottom of a rappel, or anywhere where rock friction, tangles, ledges, or other things reduce rope weight, the locking effect will be mitigated. The only sensible response is to behave as if there is no expectation of locking. If you need to stop during a rappel and take both hands off, use leg wraps or one of the standard belay-escape tie-off methods to anchor the rope.

I've found that as the edges of the slots round off, there is slightly less braking effect for rappels. But Gabe has had a much more serious problem, with the cross-piece wearing a groove in the bottom of the plate that eventually interfered with the cross-piece's ability to full pinch the rope under tension.

I have heard that this issue has been resolved in later models of the TRE. Personally, I haven't experienced it.

As for palm orientation, I can manipulate double ropes more quickly and accurately with both palms up and the strands parallel, but that's just my personal preference---I certainly don't want to get into one of those silly palm up/down wars. If you and your leader are happy with your performance, nothing more need be said.

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#18625 - 03/19/06 07:32 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: Mark Heyman]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Quote:

That's scary. I have used mine without that problem - yet!




I should not have written this. I have always known the Tre slipped sometimes and just backed it up with a leg wrap when needed.

Added: I did not realize that an uncontrolable "fall" was much of an issue! I would like to know from Scott in how deep the groves were worn into his device were when he tested it.



Edited by Mark Heyman (03/20/06 05:18 PM)

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#18626 - 03/20/06 12:45 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: yip]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
Quote:



I do prefer direct belay second from the anchor so the GiGi seems a good option. I heard the downside is it's not ideal for belaying the leader with thin ropes(some suggest extra biner to increase friction?). It's hard to find one single 'perfect' device to carry which do every job nicely. Maybe when I'm more experienced with two ropes I'll know what suit me most.




It's not ideal, but it's not so hard either. I personally like having two devices because I'm weird like that. I love my plaquette.

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#18627 - 03/20/06 04:51 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: rg@ofmc]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2082
Loc: SoCal
Scott's TRE had serious rope grooves in the cross-bar by the time he retired it, after ~2 years? of use. I'm pretty sure he bought it because it was advertised as an autolocker for doubles (at the time, at least) - he wanted the 'safety' of GriGri when climbing with relatively new people. Plus, he liked the idea of the rappel being automatically backed up (we both back up rappels with a prussik). So he was very disappointed to realize that wasn't the case. I'll ask him to toss in his own $0.02 here, so I'm not muddling things.

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#18628 - 03/20/06 06:22 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: Julie]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
thread drift but what's the latest and greatest on double ropes now? around 8.5 mm.
_________________________
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#18629 - 03/20/06 09:14 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: talus]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I'm pretty sure he bought it because it was advertised as an autolocker for doubles (at the time, at least) - he wanted the 'safety' of GriGri when climbing with relatively new people. Plus, he liked the idea of the rappel being automatically backed up (we both back up rappels with a prussik). So he was very disappointed to realize that wasn't the case.

I can understand his disappointment. The very few US sources did not, in general provide accurate descriptions of what the device does.

I knew from the manual that locking action under a leader fall is only certain for single ropes or both strands of a double, but I did think at first that would lock off on rappels, until I thought about how the mechanism worked and conducted a little experiment with low rope weight.

Rock and Snow wouldn't carry it precisely because they were concerned that people would misunderstand what it does and does not do and that those misunderstandings could lead to accidents.

My understanding is that the grooving problem has been addressed by the addition of brass bearings on the part of the cross piece that contacts the slotted plate.

By the way, I haven't given up on mine. I still think it is better than ATC's, but you have to judge it for what it actually does.

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#18630 - 03/20/06 09:20 PM Re: Question on Double Rope Technique [Re: talus]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2082
Loc: SoCal
We've been through a set of Edelweiss - can't go wrong there! - and currently have Mammuts, which are really nice too. Mammut factory-marks their middles, which is less urgent on a double rope, but still comes in handy.

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