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#20394 - 05/15/06 03:10 PM ankle turn
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
ok so this is the second time i turned my ankle while trail running in nike's that i got this year. this time it's really bad, as the ankle turned & i heard a pop. now i'm out for at least 2 weeks F*#Kin sh*t. could it be just the shoe. i never turned my ankle this bad before and i think it's due to the profile of nikes. anyway has anyone had problems turning ankles? what trail running shoes do you all recomend?
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#20395 - 05/15/06 05:35 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
mworking Offline
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Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Yes I think some shoes are much less susceptible to turning ankles than others. In general the lower the foot bed, especially under the rear of the foot the less likely you will be to turn an ankle wearing it Heel width plays a role too, but it is more of a tradeoff. Trail shoes should be low to the ground, but this means there is a tradeoff between cushioning and height.

Ironically, the softer the trails you run, the softer your shoes must be to provide additional cushion. I wear different shoes for different terrain:

Montrail Vitesses on SJ sand/pine needles. Relatively uniform soft sole with large lugs. Despite what they look like they ventilate and dry extremely well. Great toe protection and great stability. Poor traction on rock.

5.10 Access: Great runner and light hiker for rocky trails. Great traction, great control due to a very low sole. When running on irregular rock minimal cushioning is ok because you need deliberate control of foot strike. I wouldn’t run in these on a regular hard surface like a street.

Asics street runners. Very stiff heel cushion, used only for an occasional 5K. I don’t normally run on pavement of any type. These are great walking shoe too.


Over the years:
I’ve worn Nikes with mixed results.

I found a pair of New Balance to feel annoyingly sluggish though I wasn’t particularly slow in them. I would have liked them except that they always felt like they were sapping my energy.

Former pair of Asics x-trainers. Couldn’t run in them without causing pain. Lesson learned - don’t run in x-trainers.

I own a pair of almost new Montrail Diaz Vistas that are painful for me to wear for any length of time!

What you will be happy with depends entirely on you, and what you will do with them.

Good luck with the ankle.


Edited by mworking (05/15/06 05:37 PM)

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#20396 - 05/15/06 06:17 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: mworking]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I'll second that - the lower the foot (thinner the sole) the LESS likely you are to roll your ankle. The one bad sprain I had (heard a pop like you, and couldn't run for 59 days) was in a pair of HiTec light day hikers. I was running in them, and a seemingly TINY bump sent my weight over the outside of the ankle. OTOH the best trail runners I ever had were a pair of 6.5 oz. racing flats.

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#20397 - 05/15/06 08:14 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Mike Rawdon]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
thanks for the replies. the nike's were the acg air, so the heel is high but they are ultra cush. for now on nikes are going to be a street or carrige trail runner.

the 5.10 access and la sportiva colorado trail look like a good low profile heel shoe.
mwork i have 2 pairs of montrail diel vista, nothing good to say about those shoes. maybe good for a treadmill.

mike after the pop sound you should heard what followed. non stop cusing all the way back to my car. right now my left outside ankle bone looks like a purple softball.
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#20398 - 05/15/06 08:21 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

right now my left outside ankle bone looks like a purple softball.




My left foot was more like an eggplant with toenails.

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#20399 - 05/15/06 11:49 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Mike Rawdon]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
eggplant with tonsils

anyone have la sportiva dragos. sportiva calls them a approach shoe (low profile shoe), wondering if the dragos can handle trail running.
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#20400 - 05/16/06 02:44 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
Cannot help you on the Dragos but La Sportiva trail shoes in general are excellent, especially the ones with the Frixion soles. They are great for running over wet rock, work better even than Vibram soles. Their trail shoes tend to be light and low to the ground.

I agree that the lower/thinner the soles the better, to minimize stability. I turn my right ankle often regardless of what shoe I wear - apparently this trait 'runs' in my family (mother, grandmother, great-grandmother - go figure) - but have not blown it like you have. However, Montrail's Masais have nice a broad heelbase and I have rarely turned when wearing them. When racing I wear an Ace ankle sock on both feet, for extra support.

I hope you heal very soon. Plenty of massage and rubbing with an ointment containing arnica will help.
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#20401 - 06/12/06 02:35 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I've never had ankle issues while trail running (including off-trail bushwhacking during AR's) while wearing Salomon shoes.
I'm on my 3rd or 4th pair now. There's a reason that many of the top AR teams wear these.

As for your ankle, I'd suggest seeing an A.R.T. practitioner, asap.
(A.R.T. = Active Release Therapy, do a google search to find a local practitioner)

I badly rolled my ankle last summer just 6 weeks before my A race, and was able to recuperate enough w/ the (very painful, but effective) help of A.R.T. treatments to be able to complete the race.

In the meantime, lots of RICE (Rest, Ice, Complaining , Elevation) will do wonders.
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#20402 - 06/13/06 03:17 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: MurphysLaw]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I thought RICE stood for Really Intense Competitive Exercise.

So that is where I have been going wrong.....
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#20403 - 06/15/06 01:11 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
well it's been a month and i'm still nursing this freaking ankle. it's about 50% now and i'm about 20lbs overweight
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#20404 - 06/15/06 03:25 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I feel for you, Talus. That really blows. Can you bike or swim for the cardio at least? Give it all the attention you can stand - exercises, massaging, arnica gel, etc. One good exercise is to imagine you are holding a crayon between your toes and by rotating only your ankle, draw the alphabet in the air. It can be done sitting or standing and gets the joint to move in every possible direction. My cursive is not so good yet but block letters are a cinch!

Two week ago I strongly rolled/lightly sprained an ankle and it is still not 100%. I am doing a trail race on Saturday so I have been doing all I can to get it back in working order. I am so glad I did not do worse damage but I could so easily be in your shoes (or your support bandage?) now. My contingency plan if it ever happens is to make sure I still get to the gym, do upper body stuff, bike/swim for cardio or I too will be morosely standing on the scale.

Keep us posted on how you are doing and be positive knowing that it will heal day by day.
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#20405 - 06/19/06 03:20 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
MurphysLaw Offline
gumby

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 2308
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
It's boring as hell, but aqua-jogging (not THAT kind of jogging ) can help maintain run fitness when you have a bum ankle.

I did a few sessions last summer, but thankfully it got well enough that I could ride the bike again after less than 2 weeks, and another week later I started doing VERY short and VERY easy runs on grass and smooth trails.

I'm taking swim lessons from a local (NYC) swim guru named Doug Stern.
He also does aqua-running classes, and there is info on his website about what it is and how to do it,
here

click on the deep water running link for your info.

(warning, there's a large pic of him that pops up, it's kinda scary. He's actually a really cool dude, but damn that's some pic. )


Did you look into A.R.T.? Since you are still at only 50%, my guess is no.
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#20406 - 06/20/06 08:13 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: MurphysLaw]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
hey Murph

what is A.R.T.? if it has anything to do w/ French impressionist i'm in especially Degas.

it's still on the mend. Saturday i biked about 30 miles did a couple laps in Lake awosting which opened Saturday for swimming, then in late afternoon started climbing till about midnight. just have to be careful with my ankle though, can't go thrashin my body around how i like to.

also been using this gel that feels very cold when i rub it in. i think it's called bio freeze.
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#20407 - 06/20/06 08:40 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
Yow! You do all that when you are recovering? What on earth do you do when in full health? Sounds like you are on the way to recovery.
I gambled on my ankle being ok to race on and it was. Only rolled each ankle once, which is excellent for me.
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#20408 - 06/21/06 04:07 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
about the same, just climb harder though. my ankle is hurt not my energy.
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#20409 - 06/21/06 09:51 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I hear you.
Climbing can tweak and twist injured ankles in ways they shouldn't go. Although at least in an indoor gym it does push one harder to boulder or climb withou using the sore foot at all.
Not intending to insult you by mentioning indoor/plastic climbing but it worked for me a few weeks ago.
Besides we woke up late and figured the rock would be wet. Nothing like being lame to generate lame excuses!
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#20410 - 06/22/06 01:19 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
no offense i pull on plastic during the winter. ScottR was surpised when he saw me at the NJRG
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#20411 - 06/26/06 05:50 AM Re: ankle turn [Re: mworking]
Lynn Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 62
Loc: NY
There seems to be a consensus that a higher bed leads to less stability, which I agree with completely, but can't figure out why it would be true.

I have messed up ankles but I have to run with orthodics, so I need a shoe with an especially low bed. But I'm an old fart so I need lots of cushioning too. Any super shoe able to meet all those requirements? I run trail and pavement so I'm interested in recommendations for both. Thanks.

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#20412 - 06/26/06 01:27 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Lynn]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

There seems to be a consensus that a higher bed leads to less stability, which I agree with completely, but can't figure out why it would be true.



Increasing foot bed height increases leverage and the forces required to keep your foot “in position” It also slightly increases the height of your center of gravity making it easier to loose your balance.

The one thing I will note the shoe that can absorb the maximum amount of energy should just about bottom out cushioning wise with you stride on the surface you are running, Absorbing the maximum amount of energy means that to run on cement you should use shoes with harder – and perhaps seemingly less cushion! It is not less. You can use softer shoes on softer trails. Rocks and Talus don’t count. You run differently - under more precise control on them


Edited by mworking (06/26/06 02:51 PM)

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#20413 - 06/27/06 02:55 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: mworking]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I too use orthotics (flattening arches) and have to remove trail shoe footbeds so as to sit as deeply into the shoe as possible.

For trails I do not think cushioning is as important as on road. I would rather be sitting securely in the shoe on trail and risk taking a pounding on the rocky or paved sections.

I would think for road shoes the comination of insole and orthotic should not be a problem given the even surface of paved roads.

All you can do is try on as many shoes as possible and see how you sit inside them with your orthotics. I love Montrail's Masais with their extremely stable heel but alas they are now discontinued. They might still be available in online inventories.
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#20414 - 06/28/06 06:45 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
Lynn Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 62
Loc: NY
Thanks for info (the higher center of gravity makes sense) and for the shoe recommendation. I'll see if I can find a pair. The only trail runners I had were Vasque, not great cushioning but nice and wide toward the back. Anyone tried the new shoes with the metal springs inside them that are banned from the Boston marathon?

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#20415 - 06/29/06 01:17 AM Re: ankle turn [Re: Lynn]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

Anyone tried the new shoes with the metal springs inside them that are banned from the Boston marathon?




Funny you mention this. Right after I poted my reply a was thinking the I had left out energy return.
It is possible to "absorb" and store the energy for return, rather than absorb and dissipate it. So shoes do not have to feel sluggish (like my old NB 805's ) to help prevent long term injury.

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#20416 - 07/05/06 06:13 AM Re: ankle turn [Re: mworking]
Lynn Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 62
Loc: NY
Ok, so I've returned from many a store and found that I can't tell anything at all about the shoe from just running around in the store with them on. I'd contemplate trying to find the Masais but worry about fit as I've discovered I take different sizes in Montrails. With the small parameters of Vasque, Solomon and some Montrail models - & full orthodics so whatever bed is coming out and the somewhat stiffer orthodic going in - run will be on rocky terrain - both ankles prone to rolling - I should look at which model? If money was not an issue I'd go ahead and buy three or four pairs and go for it but money is an issue so I'm going to rely heavily on your prior knowledge, experience and expertise on the issue...

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#20417 - 07/05/06 06:09 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Lynn]
The Lisa Offline
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Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
There is a certain amount of trial and error involved. It may end up being a case of settling for the most stable-looking shoe, one that is fitted by the store's expert fitter, and going on from there. Take it out on the trails and experiment with different foot beds.

Are you working on strengthening your ankles too? Being proactive on foot placements while running also helps. I roll my ankle a lot less know that I pay attention to where I am putting my feet.

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#20418 - 07/05/06 09:03 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

Ok, so I've returned from many a store and found that I can't tell anything at all about the shoe from just running around in the store with them on.




Absolutely. Been fooled in stores quite a number of times. But there are plenty of good shoes.

Quote:

run will be on rocky terrain –




Not sure what this means. If you are talking PA style AT trails, scree or talus I give the 5.10 Access very high marks for that application. Little padding - though you won’t use it if you have to be that careful placing your feet anyway. Not for carriage roads. Trail or street shoes can both work there – depending on the shoe. Anyway they are my favorite “rock” shoes, and I am not a 5.10 fan. In fact these are my fourth pair of 5.10 shoes (not climbing shoes), and they are the only ones that didn’t fall apart prematurely.

Montrail Viteses have changed a bit over the years. They are now a bit like running in a hiking boot with a very flat heel. They are still my favorite shoe on soft and "normal" trails. By the way they breathe quite well and are much cooler than they look like they would be.

I have always been interested in La Sportiva and recently I have been particularly interested in Solomons too. Didn’t purchase the Solomons because I was concerned that they would cause heel problems for me similar to the way the Montrail Diaz-Vistas did.

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#20419 - 07/05/06 11:24 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: mworking]
Lynn Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 62
Loc: NY
Rocky as in lots of sharp rocks - roots and twigs. Plenty of stuff that could bruise a foot and also cause it to roll. Not approach shoes but running shoes. I try and be careful about where I put my foot but when I get tired, I get sloppy. I've also found that having wet socks & sneakers will cause me to roll on level ground.
I was doing some great strengthening in PT but haven't been able to afford it time and money wise lately, thus I was hoping some sort of magical shoe could save me.

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#20420 - 07/06/06 08:00 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Lynn]
The Lisa Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I would love some magical shoes too, please! In the meantime, I work with the ones I have and pay extra extra attention towards the end of a race where it is too easy to lose concentration.
I find the orthotics slip around when shoes and socks are wet - must velcro them together in future.

My shoe recommendations -
1. Montrail Masais - super light, broad stable heel.
2. North Face 'Ultra 102' which have Roll Control and a choice of lacing methods.

Good luck and keep me posted.

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#20421 - 07/06/06 09:19 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
i've been diggin la sportiva exum ridge good all around shoe
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#20422 - 07/07/06 12:42 AM Re: ankle turn [Re: talus]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

Rocky as in lots of sharp rocks - roots and twigs. Plenty of stuff that could bruise a foot and also cause it to roll. Not approach shoes but running shoes.




Normal definitely trail shoe territory. I would forget the 5.10s though from your description, if you want cushion.
NF has defintely been on my interest list too.

I didn't inted to make the Montrail Vitsses sound like an apprach shoe. They aren't.though they aren't built like most running shoes either though - low thin and flexible from the ball forward. They were around before there were many trails shoes on the market.

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#20423 - 07/07/06 10:04 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: mworking]
Lynn Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 62
Loc: NY
Thanks everyone! I'm robbing a ba-- errr, I'm going shopping tonight... only a few more weeks to break them in so what I get, I'll get. Hopefully I'll find the magic pair.
Thanks again for your recommendations.

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#20424 - 07/08/06 12:42 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Lynn]
The Lisa Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
Only a few weeks to break them in, Lynn? Are you running The Escarpment Trail race at the end of July, perchance? Lots of rocky and rooty trail to run on there - I will be wearing the Masai's which only have about 18 miles left in them anyway.

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#20425 - 07/10/06 02:45 AM Re: ankle turn [Re: The Lisa]
Lynn Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 62
Loc: NY
My bf hooked me up with some Solomons, no more resting while I stop to tie a shoelace. Rats. Yup, doing Escarpment for the first time... getting a little worried about if I'm training enough but don't want to push the achillies too hard.

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#20426 - 07/10/06 12:28 PM Re: ankle turn [Re: Lynn]
The Lisa Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
Good, hope the Solomons work for you.
It will be my first time doing the race too, cannot wait. I have hiked and backpacked the ET enough, now it is time to run it.

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