Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 9 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#21317 - 06/01/06 08:22 PM SteriPEN
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Does this replace a good filter? Anyone tried one?



http://www.hydro-photon.com/

SteriPEN™ is the only portable water purifier that uses ultraviolet (UV) light to destroy waterborne microbes.
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

Top
#21318 - 06/01/06 09:06 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: d-elvis]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Might be nice if you've got clean running water. I'd rather have a filter if I'm pulling water out of murky ponds or dirty puddles.
_________________________


Top
#21319 - 06/02/06 11:18 AM Re: SteriPEN [Re: d-elvis]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
From the website:

SteriPEN™ has been shown to destroy in excess of 99.9999% of bacteria, 99.99% of viruses and 99.9% protozoa.

Isn't that tiny fraction of a percent all it takes to lay one low?
_________________________

Top
#21320 - 06/02/06 12:36 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: oenophore]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Quote:

From the website:

SteriPEN™ has been shown to destroy in excess of 99.9999% of bacteria, 99.99% of viruses and 99.9% protozoa.

Isn't that tiny fraction of a percent all it takes to lay one low?




Yes, that is a tiny fraction... but if you look at industry standards, most filters and purifiers have similar if not less impressive standards.
Especially filters, as they cannot as easily remove viruses from the water, this is why many filter manufacturers recommend a further treatment after filtration with a halogen (chlorine or iodine).

UV has been used for many years in laboratory settings for getting ultra-pure water (HPLC/UV Grade) for use with sensitive equipment.

The main problems with the SterPEN as I see it are:
It is battery operated, batteries die... and carrying extra can be a pain.
It is not effective with cloudy water as the large particles block the UV.
Is it effective against cryptosporidia (a hardshelled protozoan cyst which is tough to kill, iodine doesn't even kill)

There are other purifiers out there like the MSR MIOX which I think Strat has...

But really... do you need another filtration/purification system D?
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

Top
#21321 - 06/02/06 12:44 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
The MSR MIOX operates on a battery also. It also requires that you have a supply of rock salt with you and that you have test strips with you. It's pretty cool technology and light weight, but, not perfect.

If I had my choice- I would choose the UV device over the MIOX device. Where I do my outdoor activities, there is an abundance of flowing water, so, cloudy water isn't too much of a concern. The UV Device will add no flavor to the water. The MIOX device adds an oxidant to the water, which also adds a flavor. True, the flavor is not as intense as an iodeene pill but, it's there.

Top
#21322 - 06/02/06 01:45 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: strat]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
When I was in the Himalayas in the Fall, a couple of guys from Colorado that I met (Kurt and Colby) had one. It works well from protecting you from viral or bacterial water borne transmissions. The light went on for a certain period of time. You stirred it around in the container and then when the light went out the water was "safe". Yes, battery powered but for a month of continual use for both of them I think they changed the battery once.

Myself, I used two things, I have a water bottle with a iodine cartridge that sits in the water (required to get the exposure required to kil virial sources) and then a carbon filter and then a filter. I also had a water filter I used for acquiring water in basecamp for cooking. I had no problem myself, but I figure the advantages for the various systems

UV source:
1- very effective at destroying both viral, bacterial and protezeon and ameobic sources (my tech uses the same idea to sterilize her biological hood in lab)
2- doesn't remove fecal matter (an issue in areas like Nepal or Peru where yaks or cows often contaminate water sources) or heavy metals

Filter:
1- removes bacterial or cellular sources
2- doesn't remove viral sources
3- systems with carbon pre-treatment systems can remove organic matter and some metals

purifier
(few true purifiers are on the market since the iodide cartridge needs to be in contact with the water for extended period of times
-addresses all issues listed above

iodine tablets
1- kills bacteria and virial sources well when used correctly
2- takes 30minutes to act (water is not immediately available)
3- doesn't remove organic contaminates
4-periods of extended use can be hard on the thyroid gland
5-light weight and compact

just a few of my opinions

Top
#21323 - 06/02/06 02:49 PM Just drink it [Re: Chas]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
If you aren't neurotic...

You could just drink most any water that is flowing and is far enough from some publicly provided water. It is, after all, being exposed to UV several hours per day. It has usually been filtered by soil.

You body has very sophisticated systems to keep you healthy. No, one bacterium probably won't be enough. Fill up when you can, but only if you must. Empty, and fill at the next one.

Sure, there are things that could infect you in some water supplies. What are the odds? If natural water were really dangerous, we wouldn't be here. You dog or cat drinks out of any puddle.

Alternatively, stay home. Watch TV. Die slowly.

Top
#21324 - 06/02/06 03:04 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: D75]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Possibly true in the US. Not so true out of the US.

Top
#21325 - 06/02/06 03:08 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: dalguard]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
LOL. Then how come there a billion people in China and 800 million in India?

Some countries may not have good water quality near population centers, but away from civilization, the sun still shines and soil still filters.

Top
#21326 - 06/02/06 03:17 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: D75]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
...lots of amoebic dysentery too. I just love it when the shit is coming out of your ass so hard that it blows your intestines out with it. It's really cool to watch kids and old people dying from dysentery.

not. whatever, filter the water and save yourself some trouble.

i'd recommed D75 to actually go for a trip. Outside of civilization, the water tends to be of much worse quality.

Top
#21327 - 06/02/06 03:29 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: D75]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Quote:

Sure, there are things that could infect you in some water supplies. What are the odds? If natural water were really dangerous, we wouldn't be here. You dog or cat drinks out of any puddle.



Quote:

LOL. Then how come there a billion people in China and 800 million in India?

Some countries may not have good water quality near population centers, but away from civilization, the sun still shines and soil still filters.




This is true... however people who have grown up and spent the majority of their lives in these regions develop a resistance to the bacteria (as do most animals) and thus aren't as affected as say... the gringo from NYC that takes a trip down to Cancun and drinks the water rather than sticking to a fine cerveza!

And with an estimated 2.3 billion cases of water-borne illness, 12 million deaths per year according to the World Health Organization... so I'm kinda thinking that there might be a lot more people in China/India/Africa if the water was clean and free of contamination...


Also it's really not recommended to drink from running "clean" water as the running water churns up the sediments containing bacteria etc.

So while you may enjoy that "clean" fresh unfiltered taste from a Mountain stream.... I'll stick with filtered Mt. stream water and maybe an unfilter beer later...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

Top
#21328 - 06/02/06 03:30 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: crackers]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Check out wikipedia dysentery. It happens around population centers.

In adults, dysentery caused by bacteria usually subsides spontaneously.

I assume that the OP is thinking about healthy adults, not young children and elderly. Also in a remote location, i.e. somewhere where locating water is necessary, and a filtration system needs to be small.

IE Back country!!! Where water is pure and moving. Not in delta regions, along slow moving rivers, towns and cities in LDCs.


Top
#21329 - 06/02/06 03:59 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: D75]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
normal flora
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#21330 - 06/02/06 04:05 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: talus]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
normal flora won't do you much good in the face of Giardia............

or numerous parasitic, water-borne infections common in under-developed countries.

A filtration step to remove large particulates, followed by use of the Steripen, would seem to me to be a reasonably effective treatment, on the effectiveness vs. hassle scale
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21331 - 06/02/06 04:09 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: irisharehere]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
yes

but each person's normal flora is different depending on their enviroment
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#21332 - 06/02/06 04:22 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: D75]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Does D75 actually ever get out?

Until recently you could get away with this advise but Gardia (an ameobic source) affects many water supplies in most parts of the US, be it close to civilization or as far as you think you can get. Try it, you'll love it. Myself, have had it once and I'll pass (got it when I was on a light and fast one day ascent when I found out the normal descent was damaged by rockfall and the alternate descent added 20+ miles to it so I ended up drinking out of various water sources in the Sierra backcountry)

In other countries, your body doesn't adjust totally. Often,they are just so used to it that they assume its a natural part of life. In Peru my partner assumed he was immune to it since he had been in country for many months (since he often lives there) but after drinking out of a stream where cows were defecating nearby I ended up carrying his backpack off the mountain since he was doubled over an literally spraying every couple of minutes.

When I was in Nepal only a few of us who were pretty anal about our water (myself, kurt, colby and a couple of guys from Romania) avoided some sort of stomach or digestive ailments.

In areas like Peru or Nepal, there really is no civilization or wilderness, cows and people are everywhere and most of their fecal matter is contaminated. (In Nepal, the vast majority of children both in the city and in the rural surroundings have Hep A due to contamination, as do they have tapeworms and ......)

Top
#21333 - 06/02/06 04:22 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: D75]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

In adults, dysentery caused by bacteria usually subsides spontaneously.




Perhaps it would be appropriate to add "after weeks or months and misery and illness.

Top
#21334 - 06/02/06 04:47 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: talus]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
but each person's normal flora is different depending on their enviroment

True, but for most of us living in the developed world, drinking water and eating foods that are by and large free from significant amounts of potentially pathogenic microbes, "just drink the water" is a somewhat rash stance.

YVMV, but I'll take reasonable precautions to avoid a case of two-bucket syndrome
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21335 - 06/02/06 04:47 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: Chas]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
From, say, trieste to, um, ulan-bataar, I'd say there is little to no 'wilderness' as americans know it. just speaking from a little personal experience...

Chas is absolutely right. People, cows, sheep, horses, and everything else is coming and going and everywhere.

As for 'local adjustment', yeah right. The locals that can afford it all buy bottled water, the others get nasty disease and stink up the bathrooms.

Top
#21336 - 06/02/06 05:47 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: crackers]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
My dad got giardia once. No thanks. Didn't kill him, but made him wish it had! Foulness in the extreme.

I use iodine in the backcountry, but I hate how long I have to wait. May look into one of these more modern solutions.

GO

Top
#21337 - 06/06/06 08:27 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: GOclimb]
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
A professor of mine had an excellent description of what goes through the mind of a person affected with gastroenterits (stomach bug). She said "At first you are afraid that you might die, then you become concerned that you might not die."

A friend who had Giardia told me that there was about a 5 second delay between getting the urge to defecate and shit exploding out of his ass. After a while he just gave up trying to get to the bathroom and shit himself. He got it in the Adirondacks.

And another thought about the importance of filtering water when in developing nations: If you get sick enough to need IV rehydration, the odds that the needle they use has been sterilized is about 50/50.

It's totally up to you though, you can choose to not filter your water. It's good job security for me if you don't. (Don't worry, my needles have all been sterilized.)

Top
#21338 - 06/06/06 08:46 PM Re: Just drink it [Re: intrepid02]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Also believing that the UV from the sun will sterilize stream water, remember;

most streams have enough silt to attenuate some of the light, some streams will attenuate most of the light

the UV dose (its an intensity time thing) used in the biosterility hoods are a hell of a lot greater then from natural sources (you'll fry tours eyes quickly in the hood, not sofast outside)

if you doubt this. The light striking a NYC sidewalk is less attenuated then in a stream. Go lick the sidewalk for 20-30 minutes, and see if anything develops. Now do this 2-4 times a day for a week (or a month) and see if anything develops

Top
#21339 - 06/07/06 01:17 AM Re: Just drink it [Re: Chas]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Chas, funny you should mention the NYC sidewalk thing. Once observed a woman drinking from a puddle on a NYC sidewalk. She probably had worse problems than the water though.

Top
#21340 - 06/07/06 01:43 AM Re: Just drink it [Re: Chas]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
I'm almost inspired to go swab the sidewalks tomorrow morning, and see what I can get to grow on an LB agar plate.........

Just my inner microbiology geek coming out
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21341 - 06/07/06 11:15 AM It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: irisharehere]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Do you suppose Jim Bridger and Kit Carson carried iodine tablets around with them? Do you think they boiled every bit of water they ever drank?

Are you guys really so post-1960 that you have never drunk untreated water? Never drank from the pipe at the Uberfall?

Sure you can trot out all of the extreme cases - confirmation bias - to support your positions.

Why are you on Gunks.com? Don't you know that even using ropes and crap, that many people fall and die? Or are you just really afraid of diarrhea ?

Top
#21342 - 06/07/06 01:57 PM Re: It is very hard to learn your potty training... [Re: D75]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx

Do you suppose Jim Bridger and Kit Carson carried iodine tablets around with them? Do you think they boiled every bit of water they ever drank?


Cool!

I'm going to walk around shooting people, killing all the critters and having a blast. I'll tell everybody that you said it was cool gradeD75iqpointsainttoomany!

as for the climbing fatalities versus diahorrea fatalities, well, your analogy stinks!


Top
#21343 - 06/07/06 02:23 PM Re: It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: D75]
fallenglass Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 276
Loc: cornwall
Do you suppose Jim Bridger and Kit Carson carried iodine tablets around with them?

times aren't what they used to be ... when i was a kid on canoe trips, i used to drink directly out of lake george -- i think i'd suffer mightily if i did that today. even so called wilderness areas, from lake colden in the 'daks to island lake in the wind rivers, have so much pressure on them from people camping (and shitting) that the water just isn't what it used to be.

Top
#21344 - 06/07/06 02:40 PM Re: It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: fallenglass]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
"You think" - No, you fear.

What is the temperature and volume of Lake George? What parasites, that would harm humans, from human fecal matter would it support for any significant amount of time? And how would those parasites get there?

Answering those questions would involve thinking. The rest is mere speculation.

Top
#21345 - 06/07/06 02:43 PM Re: It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: D75]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Giardia cysts are extremely temperature tolerant.
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21346 - 06/07/06 02:51 PM Re: It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: D75]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

Do you suppose Jim Bridger and Kit Carson carried iodine tablets around with them? Do you think they boiled every bit of water they ever drank?




Journal entry April 4, 1824: "Lost three more explorers last night due to dysentary. Cook is lame from a leg ulcer..."

So, go ahead and emulate your romantic pioneers!

Top
#21347 - 06/07/06 03:19 PM Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: irisharehere]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

Giardia cysts are extremely temperature tolerant.




Maybe, but something must cause them to die. Else all the fresh water would have been impotable centuries ago.

Think about this epidemiologically... There is some probability, to be sure, that the next glass of water you drink could be contaminated, regardless of its source.

Think about differential equations here. If the rate of pathogen death does not exceed the sum of the rates of introduction of the pathogen and its reproductive rate, then the water will be certainly harmful. And likely long ago.

Native Ams drank the water for a millenium or so, and were fertile - (What Darwin really says - not that they were the strongest, but that they were able to reproduce.)

Perhaps someday an anthropologist will find the devices they used to purify the water.

Top
#21348 - 06/07/06 04:04 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: D75]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Fertility is largely irrelevant to GI diseases such as Giardia. There isn't much chance of you dying, or being rendered sterile, from a case of giardia contracted in the Daks.

However, it will result in a few weeks of GI symptoms you'll regret!

Your arguement has some validity - pathogens in water will die off at a given rate (specific to each pathogen, and the environment it's in). Because of this, as you say, we haven't irreversibly contaminated all the water on earth.

The problem arises though, of the massive increase in the earths population, in general, in the last 2 or 3 centurys, and in the density of people going camping/hiking/climbing/mountainbiking or whatever, in the north american "wilderness". This has led to a large increase in the detectable pollution of areas, and watersources, that were formerly regarded as clean.

As I said, waterborne diseases in the developed world aren't likely to kill you, but for the discomfort they can cause, it's worth it to me to treat my drinking water.

But by all means, go drink from your favourite stream. Might mean more buisness for evil microbiologists and pharma companies!


Edit: I'll be up in New Paltz next weekend - I'll bring a liter of water from the East River - are you willing to drink it?


Edited by irisharehere (06/07/06 04:07 PM)
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21349 - 06/07/06 05:07 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: d-elvis]
fallenglass Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 276
Loc: cornwall
remember when there was a cup hanging from the water pipe at the uberfall? when was the last time anyone here drank from that pipe? the last time i did, my wife yelled at me ...

edit: ugh ... missed d75's uberfall pipe comment .. nevermind ...


Edited by fallenglass (06/07/06 05:10 PM)

Top
#21350 - 06/07/06 05:08 PM Re: It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: D75]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
"Are you guys really so post-1960 that you have never drunk untreated water? Never drank from the pipe at the Uberfall?"


Drank it at the Uberfall and had no problem. Drank the unfiltered water at Roger's in WV and got zapped with high fever and the feeling that you can't swallow solid food. Took 3 months of antibiotics (after regular doc gave up, he sent me to a specialist, who said Yuck when he put the camera up my nose and down my throat) to beat it out of me. I would still consider the Uberfall, but i don't usually run out of water at the Gunks. But Roger's and anywhere else is right out.

Top
#21351 - 06/07/06 05:27 PM Re: It is very hard to unlearn your potty training... [Re: alicex4]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
I'll be up in New Paltz next weekend - I'll bring a liter of water from the East River - are you willing to drink it?

Hah! I'd take the water from the puddle outside Rockefeller Center before the East River. Preferably after hot summer days, and a fresh rain.

Seriously, the East River drains from too many places that clearly do not meet the backwoods criteria.

Saint Lawrence River would be OK, though.

Top
#21352 - 06/07/06 05:58 PM Stick to beer, it is safer. [Re: D75]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
The responses on this thread are really kind of funny

Just for fun, try wikipedia with the topics "Roman aqueducts" and "Drinking water"

From the second...

Although most fresh water sources are drinkable by humans, they can be a disease vector or cause long-term health problems if they do not meet certain water quality guidelines.

So if you are going to drink from the same source extensively, consider the second part of that sentence.

BTW. About 12% of the household wells in NJ are failing the water standards tests for various reasons.
Oh no! I used to drink well water when I was a kid, but not in NJ. And still drink it from streams.

So if you are going to be at a single location (water source) for a few days, boil the water and save it when you are cooking.

If your sources are not going to be clear, filters will really help. (Like AT in NJ, e.g). That pond with algae probably has a lot of stuff growing in it that won't hurt you, and other stuff that your body will get rid of with some temporary discomfort. And maybe some nasty stuff that is really awful that filtering and boiling won't do jack for.

Your common sense will help, but as a consumer, you have probably already bought into extreme safety and had your common sense threshold altered. The nice thing about that is you can simply avoid thinking and buy American.

Top
#21353 - 06/07/06 06:41 PM Re: Stick to beer, it is safer. [Re: D75]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Dillbag (that's me) said:

Quote:

So while you may enjoy that "clean" fresh unfiltered taste from a Mountain stream.... I'll stick with filtered Mt. stream water and maybe an unfilter beer later...





D75... You've finally come around to what I said 20 something posts ago
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

Top
#21354 - 06/07/06 07:25 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: d-elvis]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
So...... do I get it or not?
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

Top
#21355 - 06/07/06 07:52 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: d-elvis]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Yes, get it. But don't rely on it alone, to treat murky water.

The microbiologist in me is wondering about low-tech, easy, pre-SteriPEN treatments...........maybe as simple as a paper coffee filter to get rid of particulates.............
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21356 - 06/07/06 09:29 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: d-elvis]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Quote:

So...... do I get it or not?




Come on D! Where are you going that needs something that hightech?

A Brita will work fine on your faucet
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

Top
#21357 - 06/07/06 09:44 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: Dillbag]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
The specs for the device say to prefilter murky water.filter the water through a filter or cloth to remove the particulate matter, which will cause a significant attenuation of the intensity resulting in a possibility that regions in your bottle could be left untreated.....

As for distribution of various contaminations. In the past they were often localized to specific regions, but with the extensive travel of people in recent years, various bacteria, viruses and protazea have been spread. Gaurdia is one. In the past the Sierras never had it. Within the last 5-10yrs the rangers have said nearly all streams and lakes have tested positive for it.

Sort of like the fauna that hitch rides on boat props and are spread from lake to lake.

Top
#21358 - 06/07/06 10:38 PM Re: SteriPEN [Re: Chas]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

As for distribution of various contaminations. In the past they were often localized to specific regions, but with the extensive travel of people in recent years, various bacteria, viruses and protazea have been spread. Gaurdia is one. In the past the Sierras never had it. Within the last 5-10yrs the rangers have said nearly all streams and lakes have tested positive for it.



It's interesting that while this discussion has been going on, the article about the Black Canyon in the latest issue of Climbing (which arrived this week) mentions that Randy Leavitt contracted giardia from drinking the Gunnison River water.....in 1984.
(On a side note, Randy hit the trifecta of also getting a severe case of poison ivy and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever on the same trip. He never went back.)
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#21359 - 06/07/06 11:46 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: D75]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
I've drunk from the pipe at the Uberfall, and I'd do so again.

Sure wouldn't drink from a glass D75 has touched to his lips, though - I'm sure he's a walking Typhoid Mary of nasty water-borne diseases! Hahahaha!

GO

Top
#21360 - 06/13/06 03:26 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: GOclimb]
drkodos Offline
addict

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Quote:

I've drunk from the pipe at the Uberfall, and I'd do so again.

GO




Dead dear in the water supply does not bother you?

I modestly suggest you hike up to the top of the Uberfall area and take a gander at the source. Follow the incipient stream above Ken's Crack to it's source: a pool of stagnant rain water that has carcasses of dead mammals decomposing in it.


The best, and most easily accesable, water in the Gunks is from an artesian spring/well located on Clove Rd, 1/2 mile downhill from Lost City parking lot and on the same side of the road. Look for the concrete cistern.

Enjoy.
_________________________

Top
#21361 - 06/13/06 03:46 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: D75]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Upon rereading this I find it sounds as ludicrous as the last!

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giardia cysts are extremely temperature tolerant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe, but something must cause them to die. Else all the fresh water would have been impotable centuries ago.




D: You make it sound as drinkable water automatically has Giardia in it as part of its makeup.
I'd like to point out that Giardia has to be in the water before we need for it to die - whether we cause that death or not. Treated city I don't water is not available in my home, I don't treat it, and it has been tested and found to be OK. It is certainly OK as far as Giardia is concerned.


Top
#21362 - 06/13/06 06:44 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: drkodos]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Quote:

Quote:

I've drunk from the pipe at the Uberfall, and I'd do so again.

GO




Dead dear in the water supply does not bother you?

I modestly suggest you hike up to the top of the Uberfall area and take a gander at the source. Follow the incipient stream above Ken's Crack to it's source: a pool of stagnant rain water that has carcasses of dead mammals decomposing in it.




I'm not talking about the runoff that comes out of the base of the cliff that runs through the culvert, but from the pipe that sometimes has a cup attached. The two seem to have a different source, since sometimes the one is running when the other isn't. Do you know anyone who's gotten sick from water from the pipe? I'd suggest that if the answer is no, then that strongly suggests that, whatever the source - whether it's that stream, or some other source, it's filtered through sufficient sediment to remove any pathogens.

Quote:

The best, and most easily accesable, water in the Gunks is from an artesian spring/well located on Clove Rd, 1/2 mile downhill from Lost City parking lot and on the same side of the road. Look for the concrete cistern.

Enjoy.




Good to know.

Oh, and by the way, that incipient stream is a torrent right now!

GO

Top
#21363 - 06/13/06 07:02 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: GOclimb]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

I'm not talking about the runoff that comes out of the base of the cliff that runs through the culvert, but from the pipe that sometimes has a cup attached. The two seem to have a different source, since sometimes the one is running when the other isn't. Do you know anyone who's gotten sick from water from the pipe?



They have the same source, and, yes, I do know more than one person who has gotten sick from the pipe water. However, that was before the tiny pondlet below Jacob's Ladder was closed off and dogs et al had free access to the water. Seriously sick? No, but definite G.I. problems. It did smell distinctly foul for a period when there was indeed a deer carcass in the pond above and behind the Uberfall.
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#21364 - 06/13/06 08:16 PM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: MarcC]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Quote:

Quote:

I'm not talking about the runoff that comes out of the base of the cliff that runs through the culvert, but from the pipe that sometimes has a cup attached. The two seem to have a different source, since sometimes the one is running when the other isn't. Do you know anyone who's gotten sick from water from the pipe?



They have the same source, and, yes, I do know more than one person who has gotten sick from the pipe water. However, that was before the tiny pondlet below Jacob's Ladder was closed off and dogs et al had free access to the water. Seriously sick? No, but definite G.I. problems. It did smell distinctly foul for a period when there was indeed a deer carcass in the pond above and behind the Uberfall.




I thought they were different... the metal pipe that had the cup I thought was a spring? As opposed to the other two pipes which are road runoff? I've never gotten sick (from either, actually) but ever since some helpful ranger (forget who) pointed out the difference to me, I stick to the metal pipe...
_________________________
Gunks T-Shirts!

Top
#21365 - 06/14/06 01:09 AM Re: Neurosis vs anaysis... [Re: Aya]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
the metal pipe that had the cup I thought was a spring?

next time, go across the road, lift up the cover of the trap and look at the mouth of the pipes. Then go up the uberfall and look at the swamp that MarcC and DrK describe...I like waterfilters.

Top
#21366 - 06/14/06 10:17 AM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: crackers]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Mommy,

Where do fish go to the bathroom? Who gets the fish out of the reservoir before they die?

Should I stop drinking the water from the pipe with the cup? Am I going to die?

Heavy metals in the water?


Edited by D75 (06/14/06 10:48 AM)

Top
#21367 - 06/14/06 02:31 PM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: D75]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

Where do fish go to the bathroom? Who gets the fish out of the reservoir before they die?



What kind of processing does the water go through when it's pumped out of the reservoir and before it reaches your tap?
Quote:

Should I stop drinking the water from the pipe with the cup? Am I going to die?



If it will stop all this trolling...
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#21368 - 06/15/06 02:29 AM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: MarcC]
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
We are all going to die, but not all of us will get Giardia

Top
#21369 - 06/15/06 10:52 PM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: intrepid02]
Chooch Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1184
Loc: South East PA
The pipe water has made me a bit loose. Never sick.
Though I have not partaken since I learned of its true cliff top source.
_________________________
Charlie

Top
#21370 - 06/15/06 11:25 PM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: Chooch]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

The pipe water has made me a bit loose. Never sick.



"a bit loose" = sick, in the view of the medical profession and water quality folks.
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#21371 - 06/16/06 10:29 AM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: MarcC]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
"Loose" nicely describes the logic here.

Lots of people improperly ascribe a causal relationship to temporally coincident events.

What is missing? Identification of the actual agent in both the water and the body.


Top
#21372 - 06/20/06 10:40 PM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: D75]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Funny how some people will go against common wisdom and recommendations of experts without facts and nothing will persuade them otherwise. Even when discussed with microbiologists, doctors, yada, yada, yada, they still have the "answer"... So be it...

Top
#21373 - 06/21/06 12:19 AM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: Chas]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

Funny how some people will go against common wisdom and recommendations of experts without facts and nothing will persuade them otherwise. Even when discussed with microbiologists, doctors, yada, yada, yada, they still have the "answer"... So be it...




Sad, how some people accept the "wisdom and recommendations of experts without facts" and ignore the facts that contradict the wisdom and recommendations.

Many of the people here have probably drunk the water from the pipe at the Gunks with no ill effects. I often do. Those two statements are factual. The human race survived drinking untreated water and still does, though not in as many places as they used to - fact. Finally the wikipedia reference backed up the claim that most water is potable. I have drunk from plenty of fresh water sources in my life without ever suffering gastric problems as a result - fact.

The one microbiologist on here has not even weighed in with any human harming organisms grown on a petri dish from a NYC sidewalk. Does it mean there are none? No, and he did not claim there would be any. Just sort of speculated that there might be.

So what about the radiation device. Is it worth the trouble? For sure, if your water has whatever it can treat and you do not have any alternatives. But is it worth its weight in the pack. Only if you know that your water is going to be bad, and you can't boil or iodine it, IMO (<- not fact, just opinion).

Top
#21374 - 06/21/06 02:01 AM Re: Neurosis vs analysis... [Re: D75]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

But is it worth its weight in the pack. Only if you know that your water is going to be bad, and you can't boil or iodine it, IMO (<- not fact, just opinion).





OK, trying to mediate here...

You say treat the water if you know it's bad. Others say treat it if you don't know it's good.

Can't everyone see the difference between these two OPINIONS?

Top
#21375 - 06/21/06 02:36 AM Genetic drift... [Re: Mike Rawdon]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Nice Mike. Ok, if you are pretty sure it is going to be bad...

Does anybody else think that it is odd that prescriptions are always for 5 days, 1 week, 10 days or 2 weeks?

Why is it that the drug companies would pick such "round numbers" for the duration of an antibiotic? Do germs have a sabbath too? Other than fingers and toes, 5 and 10 are really unusual numbers in nature.

And these prescriptions are always in nice round numbers like 10, 20, 25, 50 milligrams, etc. Why is it that 10 milligrams takes 5 days, and not 3, 4, 6, or 9?

You know if there was ever an argument for using a binary number system, it would be sexual or asexual reproduction. So why are these prescriptions related to decimal numbers, or 5 or 7 day weeks or 30 day months?

Weird!

Top
#21376 - 06/21/06 01:12 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: D75]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
"And these prescriptions are always in nice round numbers like 10, 20, 25, 50 milligrams, etc. Why is it that 10 milligrams takes 5 days, and not 3, 4, 6, or 9? "

It's a somewhat arbitrary amount, that's been shown to be clinically effective.

5 digits seems to be fairly widespread in nature, but not an unbroken rule - lots of tree frogs have fewer toes. I suspect having more though would lead to problems utilising the digits without them getting in each others way.

What are we talking about again?

Oh yeah - bacteria on the sidewalk - turns out that paving stones exposed to UV all day are actually a really harsh environment........
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21377 - 06/21/06 01:48 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: irisharehere]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

Oh yeah - bacteria on the sidewalk - turns out that paving stones exposed to UV all day are actually a really harsh environment........




So is that your education speaking, or did you actually fail to get a culture?

What's next?

Burying waste x inches deep y feet from water, or smearing it into a thin layer on a rock that is exposed to sunlight and inaccessible to the animals that might eat it? (Assuming that packing it out is not an option, of course.)

Top
#21378 - 06/21/06 01:51 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: irisharehere]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
As for why are doses in nice round numbers. I can answer that since I've set up dosing strategies for combination products (products that contain both pharmceutical agents and devices).

1) when you set up a dosing strategy in general you start out with cell culture work and you establish the minimum therapeutic dose and the toxic limit, which in some drugs can span a couple orders or magnitude and for some its very tight.

2) you then go into a preclinical model ( and establish safety and efficacy in a model that most closely represents conditions in humans).

3) You pick an dose that shows both safety and efficacy in the preclinical model and then after a few years of diligence on the part of a significant team of people you then show safety in a clinical study. (Phase I)

4) In a Phase II clinical study you show dose dependency. And why nice round numbers, because of human nature. In most drugs the variability between individuals (or any biological systems) will vary enough that you would never show a difference between a 250ug dose and a 256ug dose. So why go with a 250ug dose. Its easier for people who are working with it.

For the drugs I work with (strong antiproliferatives) - given data from my field, since I work with research and there is confidentiality and also since its an R&D device, I am also covered by FDA yada, yada, yada....,, (and since I work with devices my dosage is given in ug/mm and actually also as a release rate which is given as a diffusion constant based on first order kinetics but I'll keep it simple here) but we see minimum variation between 5ug/mm and 20ug/mm. You keep it simple and choose round values and not 10.16ug/mm.

What I described above is a very simplistic explaination which involves years of work... but the rational is applied.


As for me calling D75 a moron (sorry for not being PC but thats it), he gives general statements not needing to treat water. Maybe from the pipe at the Trapps you don't but if you go to a stream or a lake in the Cascades (friend Adam got giardia there) the Sierras (I got giardia there) Peru (hugo was doubled over there) Nepal (about 3/4 of the people on the permit I was on there ended up on Ciprofloxin since there bowels were ready to explode) it just doesn't hold water (no pun intended). No you won't die, but for 3wks you only wish you were. Will you get it every time, of course not, but when you do.... you'll remember it for quite a while. Use your discretion. If you don't want to filter, fine- its your decision. If you want to filter- no one should chide you for it.

Top
#21379 - 06/21/06 02:56 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: Chas]
paulraphael Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
Question ...

Before the mid '80s or so, most outdoors people presumed mountain stream water in this country to be safe, if it met a certain number of criteria (distance from trails, roads, livestock, etc; flowing swiftly, exposure to sun ....)

Everyone i knew drank right out of the creeks and I never saw anyone get sick. This included a month-long backpacking trip in the Absarokas with over a dozen other people, and many summers in the Tetons, Gros Ventre, and Front Range.

Then, almost overnight, there was news that the water should be presumed unsafe. There was clinical evidence, and also what seemed like an overnight emergence of people I meet who'd had giardia.

The explanation I heard is that this wasn't an information epidemic, but a real one ... that somehow, a cycle that included people but was mostly perpetuated by livestock and high mountain voles, had spread giardia throughout most of the surface water on the continent.

Does anyone know anything about this? I'm still curious about the real story.

Top
#21380 - 06/21/06 05:30 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: paulraphael]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Start here. CDC stuff. A bit old. Ends in 2002.

Note higher incidence in young children <10 yrs. and middle aged adults. Note also that mandatory reporting was started in 2002. Oddly even though many sources were identified, community drinking water, swimming pools, day care centers, diaper changing, etc., no real attempt was made to categorized incidences by source. Closest you get is by US state.

Worst state is VT with over 20 cases / 100,000 population / year. Lowest TX, with less than 1 / 100,000.

Do not see anything here that would really help to quantify the risk (probability). I.e. given that you drank from a random Sierra source, the probability of your becoming infected.

Boiling and filtering are the recommendations. Specific filter size requirement listed. Halogenation results depend on pH, clarity, ... Effectiveness of UV would certainly depend on clarity as well.

Top
#21381 - 06/21/06 06:14 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: D75]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
A study from sereral years back reported that of packstock surveyed at 17 commercial or government operations in the Sierra Nevada range, roughly 5% were shedding Giardia duodenalis cysts at the time of investigation.

That would make me want to treat my water out there!

I'll do some more nosing around PubMed tonight, see whats out there......
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

Top
#21382 - 06/21/06 07:41 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: irisharehere]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Here we are hammering away on giardia and all the OP wanted to know was if the SteriPen was worth the cost and how well it works!

Giving D75 a bone (merciless troll that he is!), it's true that in the high Sierra, you probably won't get giardia from drinking untreated water, and, the "dangers of giardia" has likely been quite a bit over-hyped. These two articles are a pretty rational take on the subject:

http://lomaprieta.sierraclub.org/pcs/articles/giardia.asp

http://www.pcta.org/help/join/magazines/SierraWater.asp

However, D75 and anyone else who insists treatment isn't necessary might want to consider.....

OK, so you probably won't get giardia unless you're taking water from streams below pastures, heavily used camp sites, and subject to run-off from pack trails. Do you know for sure your pristine stream isn't one of the risky ones? Since giardia can manifest in as little as one week, would you put 2/3s of your planned 3-week backcountry trip in jeopardy for the sake of saving a few ounces in your pack?

Alright, let's ignore giardia. What about cryptosporidium, yersinia, salmonella, campylobacter, aeromonas, other fecal coliforms, and E. coli (particularly strain O157:H7, which has been fatal in otherwise healthy, non-immunocompromised adults)?

As another poster said, it's up to you. You buys your ticket and takes your chances, but I wouldn't want to have to depend on you as my partner on such a trip.


Edited by MarcC (06/21/06 07:50 PM)
_________________________
- Marc

Top
#21383 - 06/21/06 10:22 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: MarcC]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
My sister-in-law, the veterinarian, says that there are big problems right now with domestic animals becoming infected from drinking in streams. Seems the culprit is bacteria from deer urine. You just never know.
I've drunk heartily from many streams and rivers, including in Little Yosemite, without filtering or problems. I've also twice gotten the "revenge" in Mexico. while the weight loss is significant, it put a hefty dent in my activities for a bit.

Top
#21384 - 06/21/06 10:31 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: MarcC]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
MarcC,

thanks for injecting some real science into this thread. My take after reading the two articles would be that not only will you "probably not get a giardia infection from drinking Sierra water", but that in fact it is extremely unlikely, far less likely even than I imagined when I first labelled the concern paranoid.

I hope others who are so paranoid about their water will read the articles in their entirety.
  • Are we shocked that the city of SF water supply is more contaminated than the Sierras?
  • After reading the articles, it makes perfect sense.

What can we take away from this "troll"
  • Popular sources for science information is often outright wrong. Yet this is the source that the public relies on.
  • Even scientists often believe the information, if it is not directly in their field of study.
  • Our own personal background may leave us with a view that is perceived to be correct, and we will hold tenaciously to that, even in the face of contrary data - aka confirmation bias.
  • Manufacturers, and others, often have profit motives associated with fear, and will exploit that fear.
  • Simply questioning the data or logic, can result in discovery. In this case, I simply based my questions on experience contrary to claims, as well as the known fact that humans have been drinking these same water sources for ages.

Top
#21385 - 06/22/06 01:48 AM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: D75]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Quote:

Manufacturers, and others, often have profit motives associated with fear, and will exploit that fear.




I was waiting for this to come up. It seems to me the fears associated with backcountry water are closely aligned in time with the emergence onto the market of small water filters.

Top
#21386 - 06/22/06 02:25 PM Re: Genetic drift... [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
The only thing the article didn't address (which was a well written article but only recognizes one source, while not considering other sources including bacterial or viral sources). It also doesn't address concentrations in a water bottle, which makes for a great incubator.

As I say, do what you wish. But if you ever travel with me, damn straight that you'll be drinking treated water, since I've had more then one climb ruined with partners doubled over. My last trip to Peru, we sat out a snow storm with my partner spraying shit on everything around him (drinking out of a stream contaminated with cow feces) and meant he was too weak to attempt the first one day ascent of the Peruvian route on Cayesh (heck, eay to be the first one day ascent when its the second ascent) and was too weak to attempt the Paragot Route on the North Face of Huascaran Norte, which meant I spent the trip waiting for him to get his strength back.(and yes, he did did see a doctor to have the exact type identified). He now filters and treats everything.

Yes, in other countries, giardia is not the culprit which is why Ciprofloxin is often used as a treatment (which is a broad spectrum gram positive/gram negative antibiotic). Yes, some of us, travel to other countries on a regular basis for climbing (so far this year I've already been to Nepal and South America) and treating becomes far more important.





Edited by Chas (06/22/06 02:32 PM)

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  daryl512 
Sponsored