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#21558 - 06/13/06 01:47 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: Jim Lawyer]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
What D75 and Tom Breloff are asking for is not mutually exclusive to what I'm trying to say. More to come later.

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#21559 - 06/13/06 02:18 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: strat]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
The adventure argument always strikes me as whiny, at best. If one wanted adventure it would seem that the strategies are
  • Buy no book.
  • Buy a book only to be sure that you are not on a route already done. (For the vanity of FA or FRA.)
  • Solo
  • Free solo.


He swings and misses . Never been there. Weather killed only two planned trips.

The requirements of a rock climbing Guide Book are generic. They are not specific to any given area. Like bolts added to a trad line. Nobody is sticking a gun to your head. You do not have to read it. You do not have to read everything in it. But publishing less than the standard info in guide books is lazy, (or arrogant) and bad business.

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#21560 - 06/13/06 02:32 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: D75]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

The adventure argument always strikes me as whiny, at best. If one wanted adventure it would seem that the strategies are
  • Buy no book.
  • Buy a book only to be sure that you are not on a route already done. (For the vanity of FA or FRA.)
  • Solo
  • Free solo.


He swings and misses . Never been there. Weather killed only two planned trips.

The requirements of a rock climbing Guide Book are generic. They are not specific to any given area. Like bolts added to a trad line. Nobody is sticking a gun to your head. You do not have to read it. You do not have to read everything in it. But publishing less than the standard info in guide books is lazy, (or arrogant) and bad business.




D75, why don't you just stop trolling. It really is ridiculous. No one is suggesting what you are calling bad business or arrogant. You really are a terrible troll, between your posts here and your posts on the SteriPen thread, it is ridiculous.

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#21561 - 06/13/06 03:29 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: Tom Breloff]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I think people who like more info in their guidebook are more likely to buy a guidebook. Put me in the more info camp. The one thing I don't like though is a guidebook full of ugly descriptions and dire warnings. There are some books that manage to turn you off of every route in them. Protection ratings and stars are a quick guide to what's dangerous or chossy. I like the route description to emphasize the positive.

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#21562 - 06/13/06 04:19 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: Jim Lawyer]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
To all: Is the Mellor Guide inadequate?
Why?

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#21563 - 06/13/06 04:35 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: Jim Lawyer]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
To all:
Is the Mellor Guide inadequate?
Why?

Just curious. Besides, the answers will be as helpful to the OP as any others.

PS: Has it really been 10 years since the last Mellor update?


Edited by mworking (06/13/06 05:01 PM)

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#21564 - 06/13/06 05:24 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: mworking]
Tom Breloff Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: NYC
Quote:

To all:
Is the Mellor Guide inadequate?
Why?




The Mellor guide is missing many details which I feel could be expanded upon. For the most part, the approaches and descents are only hinted at, and route descriptions are kind of generic "Climb the crack just left of the crack, and just right of the crack, up to a crack, then traverse right 10-50 feet to a crack and up to the top." (Obvious exaggeration!)

Also, there may be some corrections and updates to be made. For example, I believe the Mellor guide describes the approach to Washbowl as going straight from the road up to the center of the cliff. My wife and I followed semi-worn paths from the road, and then bushwacked halfway to the cliff until she lost her motivation to climb Washbowl. We went to nearby Creature wall, only to have someone tell us that the "new" trail to Washbowl uses the same trailhead as Creature wall. A small detail that kind of killed our day.

I've spent enough time in the Placid area to know my way around the cliffs, but I've only climbed on the few cliffs with the easiest access. This is mainly because I wasn't confident I could avoid an epic with the information at hand, and I don't want to spend my precious Adirondack climbing days trying to find the cliff. I think one could strike a balance between too little and too much information by providing accurate trail maps showing approach and descent, and keeping the route topos and move-by-move analysis to a minimum. Maybe it would be best to give accurate topos for the easy access crags, and then just some general descriptions for the backcountry crags.

Tom

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#21565 - 06/13/06 06:01 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: brianlax]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
Quote:

I'm going to go ahead and toss out an underhanded pitch... D75, feel free to swing... but it doesnt seem to me you have climbed in the Adirondacks before (aside from Beerwalls or Spiders Web)... Having a supertopo guide to the area is probably the worst thing that could happen.

What makes the Adirondacks so special is the "Spirit of Adventure" (great climb btw) involved in the outings. Having someone lay down the exact gear beta, cruxes, fixed gear, and everything else for every pitch is beyond excessive and not what climbing in the adirondacks is about at all.



I've used the Supertopos in the Valley a few times and never lacked for that "Spirit of Adventure" you seem to think they kill. Chris details the crap out of the North Dome Gully and East Ledges descents and I hardly felt cheated out of the adventure... and we had a guide (who got lost a few times). I'd vote for including all you can in the guide and let the adventure seekers opt out of purchasing it.

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#21566 - 06/13/06 06:19 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: chazman]
brianlax Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 31
Lets see what Don Mellor has to say.... (taken from adirondackrock.com)

_____________________________________
Jim and Jeremy,

Best of luck in your project. The website looks great, probably a good indication of the kind of work you guys are going to produce. As I told you years ago, Jeremy, while I enjoyed my spot as guidebook guy since 1983, I have neither the desire, the time, nor the intimate knowledge of the last climbing decade to ever do it again. And it’s kind of pleasant slipping out of the center of things: no worrying about whether this or that route is actually on state land; no emails telling me that “I just backed off the 5.10 section of your “5.8” – do you sniff glue?”; no guilt about writing up routes that I hadn’t done. I leave all those niceties to you. And I’m glad it’s you, since you have the passion, the knowledge, and the technological skills to pull it together.

What was most important to me was perpetuating the image (or the myth?) that Adirondack climbing was different – inconvenient, unpredictable, irritating, at times; that it was the place, far more than the petty deeds of the people, that earned our respect. Taming routes or approaches didn’t help, in my opinion, since people come here for the struggle. I’d love to see that philosophy sustained.

I also fully appreciated my long relationship with the Adirondack Mountain Club. I still think they are our strongest advocacy voice. And for the time being, I think the red book is still pretty useful. I feel really good about what you are doing. If I can help in any way, don’t be shy.

Don Mellor
_________________________________________________________

Have any of you used the Joe Kelsey's Wind River Guidebook... written much in the same way that Don wrote his book... and it is excellent... to say that "The requirements of a rock climbing Guide Book are generic. They are not specific to any given area." I would say is very wrong...

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#21567 - 06/13/06 07:24 PM Re: Adirondack Rock - a new rock climbing guide [Re: Tom Breloff]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Quote:

Also, there may be some corrections and updates to be made. For example, I believe the Mellor guide describes the approach to Washbowl as going straight from the road up to the center of the cliff. My wife and I followed semi-worn paths from the road, and then bushwacked halfway to the cliff until she lost her motivation to climb Washbowl. We went to nearby Creature wall, only to have someone tell us that the "new" trail to Washbowl uses the same trailhead as Creature wall. A small detail that kind of killed our day.




I don't understand your complaint - the 10 year old guide didn't detail the "new" approach? That the "old" approach was too difficult? Not well described?

I climbed up at Washbowl last August and after locating a path from the road (which was just abourt where the dotted line on the map on page 64 shows it to be) and mustering the courage to actually commit (my pack was really heavy!) to crossing the stream (described in the guide book as, surprisingly enough, a stream in a swampy area) via a fallen tree, the first cairn was very easily visible (actually, it was visible even without crossing the stream). The rest were very easy to find. No, it wasn't the 20 minute climb (not for an out of shape city girl like me) described in the book, but it was by no means a "bushwhack". It was a very clearly marked scramble up a huge talus field, and the features such as the prominent right facing corner described in the book were very obvious. My scribbled notes indicate that "ascent via creeature wall trail could avoid much talus??" (my conclusion after we chose to descend that way) but it's not like the "old" trail disappeared and became overgrown or something.

The problem is that a lot of the climbs are kind of a bit of a hike to get in to, and aren't exactly super frequently climbed - the approach trails can change pretty easily, so a turn-left at he forked tree, turn right at the elephant-shaped mossy rock type description isn't really possible, unless you're expecting someone to go in and create and maintain approach trails... not that I've exactly climbed a lot up there; that's just my impression...

Anyway, thanks and best wishes to Jim & Jeremy; I wish I climbed enough up there to help you guys out, but as it is I think the most I can really offer you guys at this point is moral support...
_________________________
Gunks T-Shirts!

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