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#23370 - 08/24/06 04:23 PM A Reasonable Proposal?
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Gardiner strives to protect open space

GARDINER - After more than a year of work, the Gardiner Open Space Committee will present the final draft of its plan to the Town Board at 7 p.m. Tuesday.

About 4,800 acres, or 17 percent of Gardiner's total land area, is protected. The proposed open space plan designates eight landscape conservation "hubs" and six conservation "corridors" - totaling about 45 percent of Gardiner's total land area - as key natural resources.

Eighty percent of the town's land is in private ownership, but the plan's intent is not to require landowners to conserve their lands. Rather, it calls for providing options and finances for every landowner that chooses protection, according to the committee's co-chairman, Lewis Eisenberg.

"We're not really telling anyone what to do. The main thing we are trying to do is make people aware of what resources are," Eisenberg said.

The conservation hubs would be the Shawangunk Ridge, the Shawangunk Kill South, the Shawangunk Kill/Wallkill River confluence, the Galeville Grasslands, the Wallkill River North, the Route 208 north farmlands, the Plattekill Gorge and the Route 208 south Farmlands.

The conservation corridors would be the River to Ridge corridor, the Palmaghatt Kill corridor, the Mara Kill corridor, the Wallkill River corridor, the Shawangunk Kill corridor and the Route 208 wetland corridor

The plan details a resource and inventory analysis of Gardiner's natural systems, a map of conservation planning areas, a priority conservation network map and a strategic plan of action and tools to help achieve the conservation goals of the community.

Eisenberg, a Gardiner resident for seven years, said the plan not only responds to the need to protect Gardiner from burgeoning development that could threaten its water resources, wildlife habitats, farmlands, rural roads and the Shawangunk Ridge, but looks after Gardiner's fiscal health.

Though it may seem counterintuitive, protecting a region from overdevelopment actually protects the local economy, he said.

Nationwide, Eisenberg said, for every dollar that is received, farmland requires between 36 and 70 cents in services (such as schools, roads, water, sewer, police and fire), while residential development requires $1.16 in services.

"If you pave paradise and put up a parking lot, then you have killed the thing people love about Gardiner," Eisenberg said.

The Open Space Committee's plan will be subject to a public hearing before it can become part of the town's master plan.

Freeman 8/6/06

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#23371 - 08/24/06 04:27 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: pda]
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
What's not to like?

- the plan's intent is not to require landowners to conserve their lands

- providing options and finances for every landowner

- protecting a region from overdevelopment actually protects the local economy

- "If you pave paradise and put up a parking lot, then you have killed the thing people love about Gardiner,"

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#23372 - 08/25/06 06:33 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: pda]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
According to those numbers the Town of Gardiner is only 28,235 acres?? I'm going ot have to check that statistic...seems not right

RR

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#23373 - 08/25/06 06:52 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: RangerRob]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Yes - I believe that just over 28,000 acres is just about right.

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#23374 - 08/30/06 05:47 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: pda]
Pamela Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Gardiner NY
"If you pave paradise and put up a parking lot, then you have killed the thing people love about Gardiner," -Lew Eisenberg speaking about the Open Space Plan recently in the Kingston Freeman. Unfortunately, that’s just what’s in store for the Aumick Road entrance to the Awosting Preserve lands recently purchased by New York State as part of the Minnewaska State Park.

- the plan's intent is not to require landowners to conserve their lands

No, they'll force conservation through restrictive zoning, so that the landowner has little viable option to use their land. Then they'll force taxpayer to foot the bill, which we are already doing.

- providing options and finances for every landowner


Yes, but the options aren't so good. No matter what, they are taking away ownership of the land by restricting it's use. Finances? Sure, the town will borrow money, make the taxpayers foot the bill, and buy off the rights cheaply from the landowner. It's a form of communism thinly disguised as "conservation".

- protecting a region from overdevelopment actually protects the local economy

I happen to think that by giving the landowners real options to do what they think is best for their land, by keeping taxes down, by keeping the government out of private property owners business, are all in the best interest of the region. Keep zoning out of my town, and I might actually be able to run a business and live in the same place!

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#23375 - 08/30/06 08:23 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: Pamela]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Pamela, please cite your source for the parks development of the Aumick Road Entrance to Awosting Reserve. I wasn't aware of any change in the Park Master Plan that would allow for that.

RR

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#23376 - 08/30/06 08:34 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Open space is a great thing to protect, but again, the distribution of the costs of doing so is the issue.

Supporters of the Open Space Plan are emphasizing how landowners won't be forced to participate. This is deceptive in that it omits the fact that zoning laws have effectively confiscated conservation easements from landowners. On the eastern flank of the ridge, I estimate that land has been devalued by approximately 50%.

The Open Space Plan is interesting in that it prioritizes land to be potentially acquired by the town for conservation, based on input from the same clamoring crowd that brought us the zoning law. The highest priority is 1 and the lowest 5. During the comprehensive planning and zoning processes leading up to the adoption of the ridge zoning law, buildable land on the slopes below the ridge was characterized as the area of highest priority. Curiously, in the Open Space Plan, now that the ridge zoning law is in place, buildable land along the ridge is only rated a 3. It is now of mid-range priority. Based on the acreage (4,895) involved in higher priority areas 1 and 2, and the amount of money for conservation the town might raise, landowners along the ridge will never be offered any conservation money by the town for their land.

If the town really wants to make the open space preservation process an amicable one, then it would do well to make it voluntary on both sides of the equation. Voluntary contributions from residents and non-residents alike to an open space fund that will be used to buy land or conservation easements from willing landowners who are free of the coercion of confiscatory zoning. That would be fair.

Fairness is all landowners really want.. No more and no less.


Edited by Kent (08/31/06 05:50 PM)

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#23377 - 08/31/06 03:58 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: Kent]
alicex4 Offline
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Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
John Adams warned, "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. Property must be sacred or liberty cannot exist."

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#23378 - 08/31/06 04:28 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: alicex4]
Pamela Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Gardiner NY
I like that.
How about these?
Quote:

?"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life; second, to liberty, third, to property, together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of... the duty of self preservation, commonly called the first law of nature. All men have a right to remain in a state of nature as long as they please; and in case of intolerable oppression, civil or religious, to leave the society they belong to, and enter into another... Now what liberty can there be where property is taken away without consent?"

Samuel Adams (November 20,1772)

It is too bad that the overall value to human beings of their basic right to private property is so widely and prestigiously denied. It is one of the most beneficent institutions and certainly the bulwark against any kind of tyranny, be it that of a ruling party, a dictatorship, or even of a democratic majority.


Tibor Machan




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#23379 - 08/31/06 05:41 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: Pamela]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
The Founders quite intentionally changed Locke's "Life, Liberty and Property" to life, liberty, and the oh so difficult to pin down "pursuit of happiness."

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#23380 - 08/31/06 06:01 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: learningtolead]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
While Locke said that "no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions", Adam Smith coined the phrase "life liberty and the pursuit of property" although that phrase has often been incorrectly attributed to Locke.

Disclaimer- the above is the result of a five second google search and so it may be incomplete or even wrong, but I think it's spot on, so to speak.

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#23381 - 09/01/06 03:46 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: RangerRob]
Pamela Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Gardiner NY
Well, I don't think that buying Awosting Reserve was in their Master Plan, either. It was probably just an opportunistic "fire sale" deal they couldn't pass up. I don't know I've never seen the Master Plan.

I don't want to give away my sources, but suffice it to say that "a little bird told me", but one who flys regularly over the territory in question. Actually, a bus "overflow" parking area was proposed there years ago but was scrapped because that stubborn landowner Bradley didn't want to play ball with the state.

I hope they DON"t PUT IT THERE, as the buses would go right by my house too, and I already have enough added traffic going to Awosting up Beecher Hill, and people trying to get to Tillson Lake. I guess they think it's still a resort.

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#23382 - 09/02/06 02:21 AM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: Pamela]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I've heard the rumor too Pamela. I don't believe it is anything other than hogwash intended to scare locals and drummed up by someone with an agenda against Parks. The Park can't even affford to get electricity back to their buildings..how in the heck are they going to build a huge access point for buses?? Even if they had the money, they can't make changes like that unless it is firmly stated in the master plan. Look what happened when the idea of a campground at Jenny Lane was introduced. Various special interest groups put the kiabosh on that. I seriously doubt those same special interest groups would allow Parks to go willy nilly installing improvements without a revision of the master plan.

RR

P.S. You have me intrigued now with your secret source! Is it Deepthroat??

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#23383 - 09/02/06 02:25 AM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: RangerRob]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
How many buses go to Minnewaska at the usual entrance? I've never seen a single one.

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#23384 - 09/02/06 02:56 PM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Quote:

Keep zoning out of my town, and I might actually be able to run a business and live in the same place!





Zoning is a major key element to the prosperity of any given town or region. Where I grew up in Bucks County PA, in Buckingham township has some of the most restrictive zoning in the country. They control almost every aspect of land use and ownership through zoning ordnances and permits. Land values have nearly risen 4X in the last 15 years. Owning land or business in the township has been a very prosperous endeavor due mostly in part to the type of community that has been created. The flip side has been other townships in the same county that have had a lax or hands off approach to zoning. Tinicum township has been one, where in the past it was a vacuum to small businesses that wanted low zoning laws and little oversight by government. Business have failed, environmentally damages in some area are extensive. Land Values have not risen any where near the levels of near by townships. That township has had a recent resurgence in land values and rebuilding of its self into a community since zoning has been implemented into a broader plan. Most of this has been brought on by the people living in the township and pressure from the out flow of people from near by area’s that have become too expensive for them to live in.

Bad or unjust zoning laws are just that, but the concept of zoning as integral part of building a community is a foundation to its prosperity.

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#23385 - 09/05/06 12:26 AM Re: A Reasonable Proposal? [Re: Pamela]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
And all is revealed. NIMBY'S come in all sizes, shapes, and varietys. No Cell phone tower in my backyard, no nuclear power plant in my back yard, no garbage dump in my back yard, no development in my back yard, no mine in my back yard, but, this is a first. NO PARK IN MY BACK YARD, DAMNIT!

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#23386 - 09/06/06 12:05 AM NAM [Re: strat]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From Strat: "NO PARK IN MY BACK YARD, DAMNIT!"

A park in my backyard is great. Just not one that I have to be ever vigilant against to be sure they don't quit claim my land, or write zoning laws to take conservation easements from me, or "accidentally" mis-post their boundaries on my land.

My favorite new NIMBY variant is NAM or Not After Me, wherein those who have benefited from the reasonably priced housing that a previously more laissez faire zoning law and town government allowed are now clamoring loudly that housing such as theirs should no longer be allowed.

One of Gardiner's town board members lives in a house that is well into SP-3 where new housing is now restricted to the point where it just won't happen at all. One of our town residents who has figured most promimently in the development of the Open Space Plan, lives in a development called Vista Estates, which was, prior to development, a hayfield. The size of his lot won't be allowed under the zoning law proposed for the valley. Vista estates by the way, is the development most prominent in the landscape when climbing in the Nears.

From Smike:"Bad or unjust zoning laws are just that, but the concept of zoning as integral part of building a community is a foundation to its prosperity."

Ahhhhhhh. A reasonable view of zoning. Thank you.

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#23387 - 09/06/06 02:11 PM Re: NAM [Re: Kent]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Damn Smikey...you actually sound....intelligent and shit! Whooda thunk it.

RR

P.S. but then again, I'm a tard, so.......

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#23388 - 09/06/06 02:36 PM Re: NAM [Re: Kent]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

From Strat: "NO PARK IN MY BACK YARD, DAMNIT!"

A park in my backyard is great. Just not one that I have to be ever vigilant against to be sure they don't quit claim my land, or write zoning laws to take conservation easements from me, or "accidentally" mis-post their boundaries on my land.

My favorite new NIMBY variant is NAM or Not After Me, wherein those who have benefited from the reasonably priced housing that a previously more laissez faire zoning law and town government allowed are now clamoring loudly that housing such as theirs should no longer be allowed.

One of Gardiner's town board members lives in a house that is well into SP-3 where new housing is now restricted to the point where it just won't happen at all. One of our town residents who has figured most promimently in the development of the Open Space Plan, lives in a development called Vista Estates, which was, prior to development, a hayfield. The size of his lot won't be allowed under the zoning law proposed for the valley. Vista estates by the way, is the development most prominent in the landscape when climbing in the Nears.

From Smike:"Bad or unjust zoning laws are just that, but the concept of zoning as integral part of building a community is a foundation to its prosperity."

Ahhhhhhh. A reasonable view of zoning. Thank you.




I am sure that Pamela appreciates you responding for her particularly since the arguements you make on her behalf are a good deal more "noble" than the "I don't want cars driving by my house" argument.

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#23389 - 09/06/06 02:50 PM Re: NAM [Re: RangerRob]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Quote:

Damn Smikey...you actually sound....intelligent and shit! Whooda thunk it.

RR

P.S. but then again, I'm a tard, so.......



Remember I've still been known to shop at Super Stop & Shop.

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#23390 - 09/13/06 02:43 AM Rural Character [Re: Smike]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
I am sure that Pamela appreciates you responding for her particularly since the arguements you make on her behalf are a good deal more "noble" than the "I don't want cars driving by my house" argument.

The hell with them driving by. I want the ones that are un-drivable. I'm still waiting for Smike to drop off the junk cars Ranger Rob burned up last year so both Smike and I can do our part to preserve Gardiner's rural character. After all, the latest greatest good in the preservation nomenklatura is now "rural character". The "Green Assets Program" of the Shawangunk Ridge Diversity of Bullshit Partnership has been helping towns around the Preserve understand how much they want to preserve their "rural character". This makes me wonder if any of these folks have ever lived in a rural area. Characteristics of rural areas include, in addition to open space: junk cars in the front yard (and the backyard too), trailer homes, alcoholism, and incest. Generally the more junk cars, trailers, family alcoholics, and inbred and/or bastard children you have, the greater your community stature.

I wonder, is this what the Gardiner/Preserve nomenklatura (I love this word) mean when they say they want the community to have rural character?

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#23391 - 09/13/06 12:39 PM Re: Rural Character [Re: Kent]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

I am sure that Pamela appreciates you responding for her particularly since the arguements you make on her behalf are a good deal more "noble" than the "I don't want cars driving by my house" argument.

The hell with them driving by. I want the ones that are un-drivable. I'm still waiting for Smike to drop off the junk cars Ranger Rob burned up last year so both Smike and I can do our part to preserve Gardiner's rural character. After all, the latest greatest good in the preservation nomenklatura is now "rural character". The "Green Assets Program" of the Shawangunk Ridge Diversity of Bullshit Partnership has been helping towns around the Preserve understand how much they want to preserve their "rural character". This makes me wonder if any of these folks have ever lived in a rural area. Characteristics of rural areas include, in addition to open space: junk cars in the front yard (and the backyard too), trailer homes, alcoholism, and incest. Generally the more junk cars, trailers, family alcoholics, and inbred and/or bastard children you have, the greater your community stature.

I wonder, is this what the Gardiner/Preserve nomenklatura (I love this word) mean when they say they want the community to have rural character?




I could give a rat's ass about the nomenklatura and quite frankly your post is completely irrelevant to the quote of mine that you snipped to reply to. Just yet another example of your grandstanding to a group of people that quite frankly don't care.

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#23392 - 09/13/06 01:17 PM Re: Rural Character [Re: strat]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Strat. That was meant to be funny rather than snippy. Go back to your woodchuck. That's meant to be funny too.

And Sam, there are quite a few people who do care.


Edited by Kent (09/13/06 01:41 PM)

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#23393 - 09/14/06 01:45 AM Re: Rural Character [Re: Kent]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
That was two quite frankly's for Strat in that post. Who does he think he is Wret Butler?

Kent, along with the junk cars you forgot to mention the burning of every substance known to mankind in the backyard, lots of kitchen appliances on the porch, and 6 brand new ATV's in the garage with trails from their property onto that newly acquired open space.

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#23394 - 09/14/06 05:03 AM Re: Rural Character [Re: RangerRob]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

That was two quite frankly's for Strat in that post. Who does he think he is Wret Butler?



[Ed. note: Rhett, not Wret.]
_________________________
- Marc

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#23395 - 09/14/06 12:27 PM Re: Rural Character [Re: RangerRob]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Quote:

That was two quite frankly's for Strat in that post. Who does he think he is Wret Butler?

Kent, along with the junk cars you forgot to mention the burning of every substance known to mankind in the backyard, lots of kitchen appliances on the porch, and 6 brand new ATV's in the garage with trails from their property onto that newly acquired open space.




Lets not forget the perpetual yard sale in the front yard to complete the “rural experience”

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#23396 - 09/14/06 08:42 PM Re: Rural Character [Re: Smike]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
You would think in this day and age of instant information access I would be able to look up the spelling of the guys name before I posted it, right? YES I am just that lazy AND stupid! To tell you the truth I just guessed at his name. I'm kinda happy I got it right

RR

P.S. Have you seen the people down the road from me Strat? They've been having a moving sale for 3 years now

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#23397 - 09/15/06 08:13 PM Re: Rural Character [Re: RangerRob]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
To add to the laundry list for the sought after "rural character" we need the quarry, quarry swimming hole, and Walmart as planned in the other thread.

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