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#23458 - 08/28/06 08:48 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

So, there's another thread about alien failures over on rc.com. Apparently another orange alien. I've been using the black through yellow aliens for quite some time now and have grown to love them. However, I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing my love affair. This recent failure was apparently another brazing failure and it was on a cam that did NOT have the dimple.

Does anyone know of a small cam that is just as useful in small placements but won't have me second-guessing it? Anybody used the new C3s enough to give a good review?




IMHO:

1) At first I only doubted the new CCH units and dropped my plans to buy a new full set this year. But CCH has very clearly demonstrated absolutely no knowledge of modern manufacturing QC, liability or any desire to learn. I now have significantly reduced confidence in my 10 yr old aliens. Will I climb on with them? Not if I decide on a replacement first. The only hope as far as I am concerned will be when someone else manufactures them, and since I don’t think they will have any large dealers, they will have to sell them solely online or sell out altogether. How many times do you think REI and Mountain Gear will pull them from their shelves and put them back? Isn’t their patent about up anyway?

2 I feel that there is consensus with which I agree that there is no other small cam as useful as the Alien design.

3) I’d like to hear more about C3’s too. I will likely buy a couple and play with them before I commit to a full set.

4) Zeroes: I have bought a few and played with them. I trust to them hold falls, but they seem a bit harder than less flexible units to place well. and get stuck easier. I stuck one permanently too, the only cam I have ever lost that way. Someone may have gotten it out, but I doubt there was much left.


Edited by mworking (08/29/06 01:21 PM)

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#23459 - 08/29/06 01:15 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: mworking]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Any a-hole can create a thread.

Unlike journalism, which sometimes actually fact-checks...

You suspect your gear, frickin' test it.

Not by some stupid a.. bounce test (whoa -held 1.6 kN, cool...), but test the sucker to failure.

1 kilonewtons = 224.808943 pounds force, just in case you did not know this.
2 kN = 449.6, etc.

Be careful, when it gets into the failure regime. 8 kN could send some stuff flying pretty fast.

You might even be able to find some 15 year old kid to video it, and post it up.

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#23460 - 08/29/06 01:25 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: D75]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
There's only one person here has enough Aliens for statisticly valid testing-to-failure........

Dennis, you listening?
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23461 - 08/29/06 12:42 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

There's only one person here has enough Aliens for statisticly valid testing-to-failure........

Dennis, you listening?




Isn't this a case where statistical significance isn't too relevant? One cam that fails under controlled testing situation within its claimed limits is enough, isn't it?

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#23462 - 08/29/06 12:43 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: D75]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

Any a-hole can create a thread.

Unlike journalism, which sometimes actually fact-checks...

You suspect your gear, frickin' test it.

Not by some stupid a.. bounce test (whoa -held 1.6 kN, cool...), but test the sucker to failure.




Ya, do that with all yer gear. Ya buy it, and break it, and buy it again. Wouldn't want to climb on anything that ain't tested right would ya.

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#23463 - 08/29/06 01:28 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
A sample of n=1 tells you nothing, even if its outside the stated strength of the cams.

Every set of items has outliers, no testing regimen can tell you that "all item X will no fail at less than YYY kN".

All you can do is say that the probability of failure at less than YYY kN is z%, where z is hopefully a really low number!!!!!!!



I would like to see someone buy a bunch of aliens from different manufacturing batches, and test them to failure. It seems that CCH may not be reliable in their manufacturing/QC processes, and if I were the kind of climber to regularly log big air, I wouldn't be using aliens any more i think.......


My father-in-law runs a civil engineering testing lab - with load cells, a pull tester, and some stone slab, we could actually set up a test fairly easily. If someone would provide a bag-o-cams for destruction testing, that is.......
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23464 - 08/29/06 01:45 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
Quote:

A sample of n=1 tells you nothing, even if its outside the stated strength of the cams.

Every set of items has outliers, no testing regimen can tell you that "all item X will no fail at less than YYY kN".

All you can do is say that the probability of failure at less than YYY kN is z%, where z is hopefully a really low number!!!!!!!



I would like to see someone buy a bunch of aliens from different manufacturing batches, and test them to failure. It seems that CCH may not be reliable in their manufacturing/QC processes, and if I were the kind of climber to regularly log big air, I wouldn't be using aliens any more i think.......


My father-in-law runs a civil engineering testing lab - with load cells, a pull tester, and some stone slab, we could actually set up a test fairly easily. If someone would provide a bag-o-cams for destruction testing, that is.......




Is that a typo? Didn't you mean to say "if I were a climber"?


Edited by learningtolead (08/29/06 01:50 PM)

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#23465 - 08/29/06 02:03 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Thanks for the lesson in statistics but I'm not disputing statistics. Sounds like someone has been trying to take some turd-like data and polish it up all pretty lately! Anyway, the dispute is your tolerance to the results of experimental test data in this situation vs mine. You may feel the need to have a high n of cams tested to make a decision about your actions based on the design, manufacturing, and QC of CCH aliens. I, on the other, only need to have n=1 to make a decision. Too much at stake. Your mileage obviously varies.

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#23466 - 08/29/06 03:12 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
Quote:

Your mileage obviously varies.




Strat, Irish's mileage varies because he hasn't been seen climbing since the Daks Fest 0f 2000.

I think he wants to live vicariously by pull testing other people's gear to failure so that they can't climb either...

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#23467 - 08/29/06 03:19 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: crackers]
socialist1 Online   content
member

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 147
Loc: New Brunswick, NJ

I think the real issue here IS statistical significance. After all if you have a one in x chance of having a defective cam, testing one really wont tell you much unless x is really low. This cannot obviously be the case or these failures would be all over the place. I understand that it may make you feel better to see one pulled to failure, just dont take one good test as complete reassurance.

What I wonder is what mountain gear found from all their testing. I believe they tested their entire alien stock during the dimple fiasco, so they might be the only ones with a statistically significant sample of failure rates of the non-dimpled cams. Maybe they have posted it?

Back to the OPs question- besides aliens, tcu's and c3s are the way to go. Tcu's are really a great all around piece as to which many can attest. I also have two C3's the 0 and the 00. So far I have found they work pretty great and will go places other cams simply will not since the head of the cam is so tiny. The head size is really unbelievable. I worry a little about the cam rotating more due to this but have yet to see it happen. Also, the C3s have a little too much lateral stiffness (in the plane of the stem) for my taste. To sum up, I like tcus or aliens (if they can redeem themselves) as a main small cam with the C3s as a small small cam supplement.

Cheers,

Ross

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