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#23448 - 08/28/06 03:35 PM Your choice for small cams
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
So, there's another thread about alien failures over on rc.com. Apparently another orange alien. I've been using the black through yellow aliens for quite some time now and have grown to love them. However, I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing my love affair. This recent failure was apparently another brazing failure and it was on a cam that did NOT have the dimple.

Does anyone know of a small cam that is just as useful in small placements but won't have me second-guessing it? Anybody used the new C3s enough to give a good review?

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#23449 - 08/28/06 04:32 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
ballnuts?

Not strictly cams, but they're active pro, small sizes, and they stick like nothing on earth.

In fact, if you fall on one, getting it out can be a lot of fun............

If you wanna get rid of your aliens, PM me.....
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23450 - 08/28/06 04:42 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
CrackBoy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2435
Loc: Republic of Davis
but if yo uhave been using them for some time, its probably safe to say that the cams are fine, the problems seem to be with teh ones purchased in the last year or so
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Just Call me Mr. Enthusiasm

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#23451 - 08/28/06 04:51 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
Quote:

So, there's another thread about alien failures over on rc.com. Apparently another orange alien. I've been using the black through yellow aliens for quite some time now and have grown to love them. However, I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing my love affair. This recent failure was apparently another brazing failure and it was on a cam that did NOT have the dimple.

Does anyone know of a small cam that is just as useful in small placements but won't have me second-guessing it? Anybody used the new C3s enough to give a good review?




I got an awesome birthday present of one of the new C3s . I have yet to place it but I'm already starting to wonder how over engineered it is. It appears to have very little flex in it if placed vertically. I'll let you know what I think when I get out and use it...

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#23452 - 08/28/06 04:56 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: CrackBoy]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
I'm never using any new cams without a hard bounce test first.

Ball Nutz are great, but they're not cams, and I'm not sure I want them bigger than like a number 3 or 4. TCUs are fine, but I prefer single stems to U stems. Zeros suck. That leaves Aliens as the top choice for me. Heard a rumour that they've been sold to Camp. Hope it's true.

GO

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#23453 - 08/28/06 05:30 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: CrackBoy]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
The alleged failed cam was from 2004, which is a pre-recall cam. This is signficant, because if it did fail, then any Alien, dimpled or not, is suspect.

Half my aliens are from '02 and have seen falls. The other half is from 04 and one from 05 and none of these have, as far as I know, taken any falls. I've pull tested these and so far all have held up, although I'm doing further, higher force tests. If they pull to half their rating, I'll be satisfied.
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#23454 - 08/28/06 07:38 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: quanto_the_mad]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I think that you can make a good case for the C3s and have found that they can often be used where you might otherwise need a hybrid alien, like on Birdland, but don't see a huge advantage with them on most gunks routes so far. It would be hard to part with my blue alien.

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#23455 - 08/28/06 07:42 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: GOclimb]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
I wouldn't want huge ballnuts either, but the #1-#3 cover the small end of "small cam" size range.

Why do you dislike Zeros? I only have one, the Yellow, but I've placed it a few times, and been fairly happy with it. Admittedly never fallen on it........
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23456 - 08/28/06 08:13 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
I like the WC Zeros, but I wouldn't want to take a big fall on one. The trigger bars are a bit stubby, I think they were lengthened last year. They're light so I carry the yellow and blue.
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#23457 - 08/28/06 08:39 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: learningtolead]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Quote:

Quote:

So, there's another thread about alien failures over on rc.com. Apparently another orange alien. I've been using the black through yellow aliens for quite some time now and have grown to love them. However, I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing my love affair. This recent failure was apparently another brazing failure and it was on a cam that did NOT have the dimple.

Does anyone know of a small cam that is just as useful in small placements but won't have me second-guessing it? Anybody used the new C3s enough to give a good review?




I got an awesome birthday present of one of the new C3s . I have yet to place it but I'm already starting to wonder how over engineered it is. It appears to have very little flex in it if placed vertically. I'll let you know what I think when I get out and use it...




What a great gift, I wonder if the provider of said gift can 'try' it out too..

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#23458 - 08/28/06 08:48 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

So, there's another thread about alien failures over on rc.com. Apparently another orange alien. I've been using the black through yellow aliens for quite some time now and have grown to love them. However, I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing my love affair. This recent failure was apparently another brazing failure and it was on a cam that did NOT have the dimple.

Does anyone know of a small cam that is just as useful in small placements but won't have me second-guessing it? Anybody used the new C3s enough to give a good review?




IMHO:

1) At first I only doubted the new CCH units and dropped my plans to buy a new full set this year. But CCH has very clearly demonstrated absolutely no knowledge of modern manufacturing QC, liability or any desire to learn. I now have significantly reduced confidence in my 10 yr old aliens. Will I climb on with them? Not if I decide on a replacement first. The only hope as far as I am concerned will be when someone else manufactures them, and since I don’t think they will have any large dealers, they will have to sell them solely online or sell out altogether. How many times do you think REI and Mountain Gear will pull them from their shelves and put them back? Isn’t their patent about up anyway?

2 I feel that there is consensus with which I agree that there is no other small cam as useful as the Alien design.

3) I’d like to hear more about C3’s too. I will likely buy a couple and play with them before I commit to a full set.

4) Zeroes: I have bought a few and played with them. I trust to them hold falls, but they seem a bit harder than less flexible units to place well. and get stuck easier. I stuck one permanently too, the only cam I have ever lost that way. Someone may have gotten it out, but I doubt there was much left.


Edited by mworking (08/29/06 01:21 PM)

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#23459 - 08/29/06 01:15 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: mworking]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Any a-hole can create a thread.

Unlike journalism, which sometimes actually fact-checks...

You suspect your gear, frickin' test it.

Not by some stupid a.. bounce test (whoa -held 1.6 kN, cool...), but test the sucker to failure.

1 kilonewtons = 224.808943 pounds force, just in case you did not know this.
2 kN = 449.6, etc.

Be careful, when it gets into the failure regime. 8 kN could send some stuff flying pretty fast.

You might even be able to find some 15 year old kid to video it, and post it up.

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#23460 - 08/29/06 01:25 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: D75]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
There's only one person here has enough Aliens for statisticly valid testing-to-failure........

Dennis, you listening?
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23461 - 08/29/06 12:42 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

There's only one person here has enough Aliens for statisticly valid testing-to-failure........

Dennis, you listening?




Isn't this a case where statistical significance isn't too relevant? One cam that fails under controlled testing situation within its claimed limits is enough, isn't it?

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#23462 - 08/29/06 12:43 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: D75]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

Any a-hole can create a thread.

Unlike journalism, which sometimes actually fact-checks...

You suspect your gear, frickin' test it.

Not by some stupid a.. bounce test (whoa -held 1.6 kN, cool...), but test the sucker to failure.




Ya, do that with all yer gear. Ya buy it, and break it, and buy it again. Wouldn't want to climb on anything that ain't tested right would ya.

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#23463 - 08/29/06 01:28 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
A sample of n=1 tells you nothing, even if its outside the stated strength of the cams.

Every set of items has outliers, no testing regimen can tell you that "all item X will no fail at less than YYY kN".

All you can do is say that the probability of failure at less than YYY kN is z%, where z is hopefully a really low number!!!!!!!



I would like to see someone buy a bunch of aliens from different manufacturing batches, and test them to failure. It seems that CCH may not be reliable in their manufacturing/QC processes, and if I were the kind of climber to regularly log big air, I wouldn't be using aliens any more i think.......


My father-in-law runs a civil engineering testing lab - with load cells, a pull tester, and some stone slab, we could actually set up a test fairly easily. If someone would provide a bag-o-cams for destruction testing, that is.......
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23464 - 08/29/06 01:45 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
Quote:

A sample of n=1 tells you nothing, even if its outside the stated strength of the cams.

Every set of items has outliers, no testing regimen can tell you that "all item X will no fail at less than YYY kN".

All you can do is say that the probability of failure at less than YYY kN is z%, where z is hopefully a really low number!!!!!!!



I would like to see someone buy a bunch of aliens from different manufacturing batches, and test them to failure. It seems that CCH may not be reliable in their manufacturing/QC processes, and if I were the kind of climber to regularly log big air, I wouldn't be using aliens any more i think.......


My father-in-law runs a civil engineering testing lab - with load cells, a pull tester, and some stone slab, we could actually set up a test fairly easily. If someone would provide a bag-o-cams for destruction testing, that is.......




Is that a typo? Didn't you mean to say "if I were a climber"?


Edited by learningtolead (08/29/06 01:50 PM)

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#23465 - 08/29/06 02:03 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Thanks for the lesson in statistics but I'm not disputing statistics. Sounds like someone has been trying to take some turd-like data and polish it up all pretty lately! Anyway, the dispute is your tolerance to the results of experimental test data in this situation vs mine. You may feel the need to have a high n of cams tested to make a decision about your actions based on the design, manufacturing, and QC of CCH aliens. I, on the other, only need to have n=1 to make a decision. Too much at stake. Your mileage obviously varies.

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#23466 - 08/29/06 03:12 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
Quote:

Your mileage obviously varies.




Strat, Irish's mileage varies because he hasn't been seen climbing since the Daks Fest 0f 2000.

I think he wants to live vicariously by pull testing other people's gear to failure so that they can't climb either...

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#23467 - 08/29/06 03:19 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: crackers]
socialist1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 147
Loc: New Brunswick, NJ

I think the real issue here IS statistical significance. After all if you have a one in x chance of having a defective cam, testing one really wont tell you much unless x is really low. This cannot obviously be the case or these failures would be all over the place. I understand that it may make you feel better to see one pulled to failure, just dont take one good test as complete reassurance.

What I wonder is what mountain gear found from all their testing. I believe they tested their entire alien stock during the dimple fiasco, so they might be the only ones with a statistically significant sample of failure rates of the non-dimpled cams. Maybe they have posted it?

Back to the OPs question- besides aliens, tcu's and c3s are the way to go. Tcu's are really a great all around piece as to which many can attest. I also have two C3's the 0 and the 00. So far I have found they work pretty great and will go places other cams simply will not since the head of the cam is so tiny. The head size is really unbelievable. I worry a little about the cam rotating more due to this but have yet to see it happen. Also, the C3s have a little too much lateral stiffness (in the plane of the stem) for my taste. To sum up, I like tcus or aliens (if they can redeem themselves) as a main small cam with the C3s as a small small cam supplement.

Cheers,

Ross

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#23468 - 08/29/06 03:26 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: crackers]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Quote:

Strat, Irish's mileage varies because he hasn't been seen climbing since the Daks Fest 0f 2000.

I think he wants to live vicariously by pull testing other people's gear to failure so that they can't climb either...




Sad, but nearly true..............

As the governator said though, "I'll be back!"
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23469 - 08/29/06 03:39 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Quote:

Thanks for the lesson in statistics but I'm not disputing statistics. Sounds like someone has been trying to take some turd-like data and polish it up all pretty lately! Anyway, the dispute is your tolerance to the results of experimental test data in this situation vs mine. You may feel the need to have a high n of cams tested to make a decision about your actions based on the design, manufacturing, and QC of CCH aliens. I, on the other, only need to have n=1 to make a decision. Too much at stake. Your mileage obviously varies.




True, if only if that one cam “fails” it’s enough to assume their might be other failures, as you only need 1 failure yourself to have a complete deal breaker. The flip side is if a cam tested passes, can one assume that all others will not fail? This is where a larger number tested will add value to that rating. So I, like you I can rule them out with one test that fails, but I can not rule them in or safe with one test that passes.

Its kind of like trying to determining that a pool of water has a cotton ball floating in it by only scoping out 1 cup of water to see if its in there. You have thousands of chances for a negative result, but only one chance for a positive.

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#23470 - 08/29/06 04:12 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
I think the repeated problems CCH are having ARE grounds for no longer trusting the cams. I guess I was just wondering what the real chance of an alien failing under a given load is. Is there a manufacturing issue that has reduced the strength of ALL new aliens out there, and we're now seeing failure of the ones "tested" to beyond the strength limit, or is it a sporadic batch-to-batch variation?

All my aliens were bought back before all these problems began, so I'm still fairly happy to use them.

If i ever go climbing.....
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23471 - 08/29/06 05:04 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: socialist1]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Quote:

What I wonder is what mountain gear found from all their testing. I believe they tested their entire alien stock during the dimple fiasco, so they might be the only ones with a statistically significant sample of failure rates of the non-dimpled cams. Maybe they have posted it?
Ross




In the original post by Paul, they said they tested cams they had in stock, the earliest batch was '05. The alleged cam failure is one from '04, non dimpled.

Maybe it is a single defective cam out of the thousands produced in that run. Maybe the guy brazing the cam just hiccupped and made one bad braze. Maybe that guy is also responsible for the misdrilled orange alien. Maybe he's also responsible for the grey alien that got yellow plastic and yellow sling.

Maybe all these things are one-time mistakes. Yes, they're all statistically insignificant. But I'd rather be alive than statistically insignficantly dead.
_________________________


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#23472 - 08/29/06 05:43 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

All my aliens were bought back before all these problems began, so I'm still fairly happy to use them.



Why? What makes you think their QC and manufacturing processes were any better before the dimpled failure? As we've now seen, there has been a pre-dimpled cam failure. If one assumes that QC and processes gradually improve as a company matures, wouldn't that cast even more doubt on cams manufactured earlier in the company's history?
_________________________
- Marc

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#23473 - 08/29/06 06:43 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: MarcC]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Well, before the "dimple" incidents, I don't recall seeing many (if any) reports of alien cam failures or manufacturing flaws, which would lead me to believe that their manufacturing/QC actually got worse, not better.

Of course, I could be totally in error - it could be that their processes were sloppy all along, and it just wasn't recognised until recently, but I'd be surprised if that were that case, given all the use aliens get in the Gunks, Yosemite, and just about everywhere inbetween...... The rash of recent failures would seem to indicate that either (a) the newer cams were not up to their rated strengths, or (b) people recently started taking harder falls on their aliens.

To all those foreswearing aliens - what are you going to do with them? Sell a potentially defctive item on eBay? I'll happily accept any and all aliens (and other cams for the matter), and test them to destruction, in the interests of nothing more than my own curiosity......
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23474 - 08/29/06 06:49 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: MarcC]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
Don't we need more than one anonymous guy posting and saying it was so before we believe it? The dimple problem was documented and eventually admitted, but this incident is hearsay so far. When the rope broke over the biner in that gym fall, did we all stop buying and using that brand of rope? I realize that CCH's failure to immediately take the lead in the previous case makes them more suspect than some manufacturers but I for one am not ready to stop trusting a bunch of cams I've always trusted because some guy says so. Wait and see what happens. Maybe Karr didn't murder Jon Benet either.

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#23475 - 08/29/06 08:19 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: dalguard]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
We didn't stop using the rope because we didn't believe a rope would break without external influences. BD handled the incident seriously and professionally, and it was discovered that there was no manufacturing issues, but as everyone suspected, an outside influence, namely sulfuric acid, which damaged the rope. There's no reason to suspect other ropes suffer the same issue.

On the other hand, there have been three completely separate issues with Aliens. One, the miscolored alien, probably wouldn't lead to injury. The misdrilled cam lobes could since the geometry is off. The bad braze definitely could cause injury. The latest is only an allegation. Apparently there is an injured climber, CCH has been in contact with the local sherrif. If it were a hoax, you would expect that CCH would have posted a statement by now.
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#23476 - 08/29/06 09:37 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Maybe Karr didn't murder Jon Benet either

Apparently he didn't and all changes have been dropped: http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/karr.da/index.html

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#23477 - 08/29/06 11:02 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: quanto_the_mad]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I don't think it's a hoax. I think there's a possibility that the cam didn't fail as described or that the failure can be attributed to some previous harm, as was the case with the rope and the acid. Any cam that has been on my rack since 2004 has felt body weight before and if this guy said take with one piece between him and a ledge fall then he wasn't shy about hanging. It seems unlikely the cam had never seen previous action. But my main point would be that I'm going to wait and see. Even if it's true, I'm not going to arbitrarily get rid of gear that's on my rack, that I'm comfortable with, and that I've hung on before. It's a bit like throwing out your laptop even though your battery isn't part of the recall. I'm pretty happy with my Aliens but if someone with knowledge and good reason tells me they're unsafe, then I'll listen. Until then, I'll wait.

And I knew that about Karr. That was the point.

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#23478 - 08/29/06 11:30 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: dalguard]
intrepid02 Offline
Snarky Bastard

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1421
Loc: Boulder
I've basically come to the same conclusion as Dawn. Half of my aliens have held falls without incident. All of them have been bounce tested. I don't have the resources to do pull tests, so I'll have to deal with what I've got.

I went to Neptune Mountaineering today and looked at their small cam selection. The fact of the matter is that there is no better small cam design. If someone else starts manufacturing aliens, I will buy a new set, but until then I'll keep climbing on my combination of Aliens and TCUs for small cams.

But the real question is: If this Karr guy is innocent, why are there still hordes of reporters camped out at the Boulder Courthouse?

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#23479 - 08/30/06 12:02 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
Frank Florence Offline
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 528
Loc: moved to Bend
I’ve never been a big fan of Aliens, and for years have carried a Metolius 00 TCU and a Black Diamond 0.2 Microcamalot as the smallest cams on my rack. Each of these pieces suffers from having a wider head than equivalent Aliens, but I’ve never found that to be too much of a nuisance at the Gunks and even less so when climbing in places with more vertical continuous cracks. I’ve looked at the smallest C3 (the 000, I think) and it’s just slightly smaller than the 00 TCU. Not really enough of a difference for me to switch, especially given its rather hefty price.

I see that the discontinued 0.1 and 0.2 Microcamalots are on sale through various outlets so for some this may be a cost effective option. I have no issues with my 0.2 and, yes, it held a fall just fine.

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#23480 - 08/30/06 03:11 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: Frank Florence]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I missed the conclusion that sulfuric acid caused the Sacramento gym rope failure. Can anyone provide a link to that "announcement"?

And did the rope owner explain how the acid might have come into contact with it? The "battery acid" explanation is not IMO as realistic a scenario as most would suggest - car batteries are under the hood of the car (in most vehicles); you ever put your rope in there??

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#23481 - 08/30/06 03:40 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: Mike Rawdon]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
http://www.bdel.com/pdf/Rope%20Breakage%20-%20final.pdf

there are coincidental ways a rope could come into contact with sulfuric acid.......unlikely and rare maybe, but possible.....thats why ropes dont just break _all_ the time.......according to kp, just four times including this one.......

i've seen leaky exploded and discarded car batteries in the most random of places......parking lots are far from a random place to find a car battery.....and the guy had his rope on the ground in one during one of its last uses before the fall.....is it a one in a million chance? sure.....but in this case it appears to have happened....

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#23482 - 08/30/06 10:32 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
D75 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Holiday Inn Express
Quote:

Isn't this a case where statistical significance isn't too relevant? One cam that fails under controlled testing situation within its claimed limits is enough, isn't it?




Have you ever flown on an airplane?

Do you ever drive or ride in a car?

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#23483 - 08/30/06 11:37 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: D75]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Quote:

Quote:

Isn't this a case where statistical significance isn't too relevant? One cam that fails under controlled testing situation within its claimed limits is enough, isn't it?




Have you ever flown on an airplane?

Do you ever drive or ride in a car?




The master troll rears his head. Get back under the bridge. Your hooks stink too much to chew on.

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#23484 - 08/30/06 02:29 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: strat]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
If you are looking for the analysis of the rope incident its on the Black Diamond website. The analysis was pretty good.

As for aliens, I gave up using them long before all this came out. The aluminum is so soft, I would go through them too fast (you can only file off the burrs on the edges which retard their trigger action so often.). I ended up going to the Wild Country Zeros. I don't see the beef about them. The seem to place easier that aliens, and I've taken some fairly decent whippers on them (30-35fters). Metolious's are decent ( a friend tooks a 140fter on it last month ). I have a Black Diamond- like thoem a lot also. Its just preference

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#23485 - 08/30/06 08:13 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: intrepid02]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

The Orange CCH Alien cam that was reportedly involved in the Paradise Forks incident, has turned out to be dated 10-05, rather than the highly publicized date of early 2004. This information has been verified the by the Coconino County Sheriffs Depart both verbally and in photographic form, with Dave Waggoner of CCH, during CCH’s own internal investigation. It is however still unknown if this unit was clearly dimpled.

The window of the recall was 11-04 to 12-05, thus any Alien cams date coded during this period should be tested, dimpled or not.

CCH will tensile test customers’ Aliens, of any manufacture date at no charge, to ensure that they will withstand a fall. Testing is done to 2/3 the rated tensile strength. After testing, all cams are currently being identified with a “Tensile Tested” stamp on the main swage above the loop. We will test and return cams to our customers within 1 week of receiving them.

Please attach your complete contact information to each unit being returned for testing, to facilitate a speedy turn-around.


Dave Waggoner

Colorado Custom Hardware Inc.
115 East Lyon Street
Laramie, WY 82072 USA
(307) 721-9385
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#23486 - 08/30/06 08:55 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: irisharehere]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
That's a little worrisome. I brought 4 Aliens in to R&S to be looked at. 2 had dimples and went back. 2 didn't and weren't tested in any way. I'm not blaming R&S for this. I'm sure they were doing what they were told. Sounds like CCH is backtracking.

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#23487 - 08/30/06 09:16 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: dalguard]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Quote:

That's a little worrisome. I brought 4 Aliens in to R&S to be looked at. 2 had dimples and went back. 2 didn't and weren't tested in any way. I'm not blaming R&S for this. I'm sure they were doing what they were told. Sounds like CCH is backtracking.




Not surprising, though. Many people wondered aloud whether an independent contractor who was already cutting corners by cooling the units too fast could be trusted to put the dimple on every piece.

GO

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#23488 - 08/30/06 09:31 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: dalguard]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Quote:

That's a little worrisome. I brought 4 Aliens in to R&S to be looked at. 2 had dimples and went back. 2 didn't and weren't tested in any way. I'm not blaming R&S for this. I'm sure they were doing what they were told. Sounds like CCH is backtracking.



I think that's the whole point some of us are trying to make. Backtracking on this, initially denouncing the entire incident as a hoax, mis-drilled axle holes not caught by QC. I feel owning any aliens at this point is a little worrisome - even if they've held falls (sure, the 3kN was easily caught; what will happen when 8kN hits that piece?). They're obviously trying to improve, but the QC issues brought to light, and, more than anything, the company's attitude (until the recent change) about it's problems would cause me to have lowered confidence in their gear. It'd be one of those nasty little voices in the back of the brain during a lead and lord knows there's enough of them already.

I suppose I'd be even more concerned if I owned more than one alien (the black one - never really liked them; always preferred Friends, Tech Friends, BD and Metolius TCUs).....and climbed anything other than sport routes these days.
_________________________
- Marc

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#23489 - 08/31/06 12:20 AM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: MarcC]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I'm not hanging them yet. Keep watching.

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#23490 - 09/08/06 01:02 PM Re: Your choice for small cams [Re: socialist1]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
There is a very good review of the BD cams here:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/climbin...d_c3s/105856485
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

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