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#23782 - 09/11/06 02:58 PM Near Trapps Ownership
pda Offline
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Here is the situation with property ownership in the Near Trapps. You can see that, according to this data from Ulster County GIS, parcels in the center of this section of cliffs are privately owned beyond the top of the cliffs themselves. This section would therefore be affected by Gardiner zoning issues or possible easement corridor considerations. Climbers may be interested in what happens with this issue as it may affect future access.


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#23783 - 09/11/06 04:13 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: pda]
oenophore Online   confused
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Interesting. What's the URL of this map series?
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#23784 - 09/11/06 04:42 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: oenophore]
pda Offline
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#23785 - 09/11/06 05:22 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: pda]
pda Offline
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There are 4 parcels with ownership issues along the Near Trapps. The land in the image below that is present to the west of the red dashed line is on talus and is steep. As such, it would be very difficult to develop it.

Suppose some entity (OSI, TNC, MP, NYS, GCC, town) were to purchase this portion of each parcel. I very much doubt the value of each parcel would be dramatically affected; you can't build there anyway. Thus the assessed value would not change much, and neither would the taxes. However, the owners of each parcel would get some value (price to be negotiated). The only "use" of this land would be a trail near the upper (western) edge of the parcel; the rest of the land would be unused. Therefore, the adjacent owner would not have to suffer any apparent loss in 'isolation value' of his property, and could even freely access the portion he sold.

Other than coming up with the purchaser and the cash, what is the problem with this scenario? Who would be the loser in this deal? I guess we would utlimately want MP ownership to secure climbing access.



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#23786 - 09/11/06 05:42 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: pda]
pda Offline
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Loc: Bergen County NJ
Note that the line in the previous map happens to nearly conincide with the SP-2/SP-3 line on the new Gardiner Zoning map, which was a coincidence, but probably based on roughly the same ground information. I suppose as a sweetener in my hypothetical, the owners of the new abbreviated parcels would get permanent open space credits under the town zoning law for this transaction.



Source: http://www.townofgardiner.org/Pages/GardinerNY_Webdocs/map.pdf

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#23787 - 09/11/06 06:06 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: pda]
alicex4 Offline
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Read Thomas Sowell's editorial today. It is topical. An excerpt:
"Soviet communism is now history but people who talk equality and practice elitism, who wrap their own selfishness in the mantle of idealism, and who sacrifice others on the altar to their own vision without a moment's hesitation are not only still with us but have become the norm on the left.
They don't have nearly the power that the Soviet dictatorship had. But they use whatever power they do have in the same spirit. The green ideology of today, like the red ideology of the past, takes it for granted that other people do not have the same rights as the new nomenklatura.
Where the new nomenklatura enjoy a particular lifestyle in a particular community, then the power of government is used to preserve that lifestyle and freeze that community where it is, even if that means freezing out other people who may not have the same money or the same lifestyle preferences."

It appears Kent was right after all, the land on the ridge is private property, let's just leave it that way.

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#23788 - 09/11/06 06:13 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: alicex4]
oenophore Online   confused
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Perhaps I'm dense Alice, but do you favor or disfavor Kent's position?
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#23789 - 09/11/06 06:49 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: oenophore]
Mike Rawdon Offline

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Are "conservation easements" required (under the proposed new zoning) for a single lot? I thought it was only for developments of 5 lots/houses or more. If that interpretation, which is based on my cursory and incomplete reading of the Gardiner rules, is correct, then anyone who's upset about their land being taken away is in reality a closet developer. Right?

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#23790 - 09/11/06 06:56 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Mike Rawdon]
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
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Loc: Bergen County NJ
Either a closet developer, or one who wants his land valued as though it could be sold to a developer.

I am not in favor of cheating anyone out of their investment. It would be great if they could get their money out of the extra piece now (which they can't really develop anyway) and invest it any way they'd like. That way, any widows or retirees could continue to live there and keep what they have in terms of improvements. That's why, IMO, purchase of these pieces would be even better than just zoning this into existence. Plus, with MP ownership (vs individuals) climbing access could be assured.

A win-win provided the cash can be obtained.

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#23791 - 09/11/06 07:10 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: oenophore]
alicex4 Offline
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If I read Kent right, I am in favor of his position as a property owner and respect all rights that go with that ownership. Develop the property or not, allowing climbing or not, whatever, I think it is Kent's prerogative as property owner to steward his own land; his preference, his privelege, his privaate property. I am offended when third parties speak of the benefits to all while infringing on the private property rights of others. New London vs Kelo anyone?

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#23792 - 09/11/06 07:43 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: alicex4]
pda Offline
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Under the Gardiner zoning plan, it would be difficult for anyone to fully develop their land in SP-3 areas. For the four properties which are the subject of this thread, building in the subject portions of the land would not be feasible in any event (it is talus and cliff).

What I am advocating is not eminent domain, nor confiscation. I am proposing a hypothetical purchase of a portion of each of these parcels at negotiated market value. Can you get more capitalistic than that? Plus, my proposal would give owners cash allowing them to stay put, and would not be denying them the benefit of adjacent vacant land they currently enjoy.

This is so far from the situation in New London vs Kelo that I'm wondering if you understand the issues in that case?

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#23793 - 09/12/06 01:45 AM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Kent Offline
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From Mike:"Are "conservation easements" required (under the proposed new zoning) for a single lot? I thought it was only for developments of 5 lots/houses or more. If that interpretation, which is based on my cursory and incomplete reading of the Gardiner rules, is correct, then anyone who's upset about their land being taken away is in reality a closet developer. Right?"

I wish you were right. Even on single lots, as a contingency for the issuance of a required special use permit to build in SP-3, the landowner must give up some of their land in a permanent conservation easement. This is something of a moot point though as other restrictions in the law effectively confiscate all development rights in SP-3. For example, the law states that if a building lot has land in both SP-2 and SP-3, then a building permit will not be allowed in SP-3. Most of the lots that reach into SP-3, like the lots highlighted in this thread, are fairly linear and so they pass through SP-2. As well, the law requires an applicant to build at the lowest possible elevation. Again, as most of the lots go from low to high, the lowest possible elevations are never in SP-3. The law requires an applicant to build at the first available building site, again precluding anything in SP-3. To be clear, these restrictions apply to SP-2 and SP-3, not SP-1. SP-1 is land near the road and special use permits are not required.

Do you really think I'm a closet developer Mike? I've talked with pretty much everyone about my goal from the start, which was to aggregate three lots, sub two houses off the front, and build one house in the back on forty acres and live their 'til my days are done. That plan has now run amok of course, courtesy of the MP and the Gardiner Town Board.

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#23794 - 09/12/06 02:03 AM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
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Loc: The Bayards
From pda: Suppose some entity (OSI, TNC, MP, NYS, GCC, town) were to purchase this portion of each parcel. I very much doubt the value of each parcel would be dramatically affected; you can't build there anyway. Thus the assessed value would not change much, and neither would the taxes. However, the owners of each parcel would get some value (price to be negotiated). The only "use" of this land would be a trail near the upper (western) edge of the parcel; the rest of the land would be unused. Therefore, the adjacent owner would not have to suffer any apparent loss in 'isolation value' of his property, and could even freely access the portion he sold."

and

"I am not in favor of cheating anyone out of their investment. It would be great if they could get their money out of the extra piece now (which they can't really develop anyway) and invest it any way they'd like. That way, any widows or retirees could continue to live there and keep what they have in terms of improvements. That's why, IMO, purchase of these pieces would be even better than just zoning this into existence. Plus, with MP ownership (vs individuals) climbing access could be assured.

A win-win provided the cash can be obtained."


This is a great idea that pretty much represents the status quo prior to recent passage of the new zoning law. The only missing ingredient was an organization willing to step up to the plate and offer something near market value. Instead, some of the above organizations offered ridiculously low numbers for the land (four years ago $1500-$2000 an acre). Owners were uninspired, to put it mildly. The source of controversy in all of this came in when some of the above mentioned organizations, most notably the Preserve, used their considerable political influence to "work the levers of local government" which then effectively confiscated conservation easements on the land in question.


Edited by Kent (09/12/06 02:19 AM)

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#23795 - 09/12/06 02:22 AM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: alicex4]
Kent Offline
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From Alice: Read Thomas Sowell's editorial today. It is topical. An excerpt:
"Soviet communism is now history but .........


Great quote Alice. Has this guy been attending Gardiner Town Board Meetings?

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#23796 - 09/12/06 12:17 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
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Loc: Bergen County NJ
This is a great idea that pretty much . . .

Agreed - you and I are on the same page here. As affordable as I want this to be for the purpose of achieving the preservation (and access) goals, using the zoning law only as a way to lower the price before acquisition is not right.

BTW - how much per acre do you think is reasonable for the unbuildable portions of the Near Trapps parcels?

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#23797 - 09/13/06 01:54 AM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: pda]
Kent Offline
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Loc: The Bayards
Cool.

As for the value of the undevelopable land in the Nears, I'm not sure. Four years ago the Preserve/OSI was offering $1500-$2000 an acre for similarly undevelopable land. But no one along my stretch of the ridge was selling for such a paltry sum. I have been told the Preserve/OSI number has moved up a bit in the ensuing years.

If the Preserve/OSI were to offer $15,000 an acre, as they did for the Campbell parcel on Cragswood Road, they would get the attention of some. Others are angry enough with the MP (post quit claim deeds, Shawangunk Ridge Biodiversity Partnership Bullshit, MP lobbying in support of the ridge zoning law) that they don't want to sell to the Preserve at any price.

Either way, if a deal couldn't be negotiated between one of the land preservation agencies and a given landowner, my default position is as stated by Alice.
If I read Kent right, I am in favor of his position as a property owner and respect all rights that go with that ownership. Develop the property or not, allowing climbing or not, whatever, I think it is Kent's prerogative as property owner to steward his own land; his preference, his privilege, his private property.


Edited by Kent (09/13/06 12:17 PM)

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#23798 - 09/14/06 11:07 AM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
noone Offline
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Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 1
I agree 100% with Alice but Kent lets be realistic. You put in a driveway that cost $70,000, that sounds pretty long. That would have put your house at the top of your property, which is pretty high up. Your house would have been a visible eyesore from 299 driving up to the cliff. Nobody wants to see your Mc Mansion. I 've heard you say "i want to build the ultimate climbers pad" What climbers have a 4-5000 sqft pad? This might be fine in some areas. Do you think changing the view of the ridge for all to suit your needs is justified? Your house would have definatley broken the tree line. I really hate the drama you have created here. So in closing STFU

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#23799 - 09/14/06 03:11 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: noone]
Kent Offline
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
My new driveway is pretty long, about twice as long as it would have been had I been left alone. But as long as it is, it doesn't go anywhere near the top of my land. The building site doesn't break the tree line, nor is it visible from anywhere in the valley. Beyond that, it's also not visible from the top of the ridge, even when standing on the nearest Millbrook Ridge Trail promontory, which also happens to be on my land.

And McMansion? No one who knows me would ever suggest I would build a McMansion.

As for the drama here, I didn't create it. The source is the idea that private land becomes a community resource whenever the community decides they want it. And that idea isn't just creating a tempest in a teapot here on gunks.com. The realization of that idea has real consequences for not just landowners along the eastern escarpment, but now also for landowners throughout town. As a direct result of the "private land as community resource" idea Gardiner has become a deeply and bitterly divided community. The town of Rochester is going through the same process with the same cast of characters and so they too are now becoming deeply and bitterly divided. To get a taste of this, try attending a town board meeting in either town. Or drive down Rt 209 in Rochester and read the mostly hand painted protest signs.

Perhaps by "the drama here" you mean my willingness to point out the Preserve's involvement in the bitter divisions within these towns. Well, I don't expect to be winning any popularity contests for that. I think it was William Sloan Coffin who said "nobody loves you for being the enemy of their illusions".

Regarding the extent to which I've posted about this, which Strat characterized as "grandstanding", I'm pretty tired of talking about it too. If you'll notice, I haven't started a post about this since the beginning of June. I've only responded when people have made wonderbread statements about a certain large landowner or when people have made gross misstatements about landowners in general, or specific individual landowners, including me.

In closing, if you are going to hurl a cowardly anonymous and impotently ineloquent STFU, you might at least try to be slightly artful about it with something like this maybe or even this.

That said, noone, if you want to step up, be real, and have a beer, I'd be happy to show you my land, driveway, building site, and house plans.

Cheers.

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#23800 - 09/14/06 04:16 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
ScottR Offline
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Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 99
Just start a timber operation on your land. That should make a whole lot of people happy. If they don't like it f*** 'em.

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#23801 - 09/14/06 08:39 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: ScottR]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
What's wrong with a timber stand management program?? You say that as if it is sarcastic. Actually it's a pretty good idea. There's some nice oak them there woods.

RR


Edited by RangerRob (09/14/06 08:40 PM)

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#23802 - 09/14/06 10:50 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: RangerRob]
ScottR Offline
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Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 99
I was thinking more along the lines of a clear cut program.

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#23803 - 09/15/06 04:15 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: ScottR]
irisharehere Offline
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Loc: Danbury CT
Burn it to the ground, and build a WalMart!!!!!
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#23804 - 09/15/06 04:38 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: irisharehere]
Kent Offline
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
To fit a Walmart, we'd have to quarry it first.

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#23805 - 09/15/06 04:49 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
pda Offline
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Loc: Bergen County NJ
I suppose quarrying of the ridge would be allowed under the doctrine of his preference, his privilege, his private property that some here seem to favor.

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#23806 - 09/15/06 05:03 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
crackers Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
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Loc: pdx
Look, whatever you do later, can we run a spray hose off the top of the cliff this winter, and some steel cables and chicken wire to help the ice form?

Honestly, if I owned a piece of cliff, I'd do that immediately.

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#23807 - 09/15/06 05:13 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
irisharehere Offline
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Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
I'm sure someone here can get their hands on the requisite amounts of C4.......

If not, how about I ask my kid brother to carry out some "training exercises" in the neighbourhood?
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#23808 - 09/15/06 05:51 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: irisharehere]
Dillbag Offline
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Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
you sure that isn't your big brother?

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#23809 - 09/15/06 05:56 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Dillbag]
irisharehere Offline
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Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Nah, he's just the runt of the family. We tell him that the whole military thing is just over-compensating......
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#23810 - 09/15/06 07:05 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: crackers]
Kent Offline
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Some sport routes and an ice park are exactly what I was thinking.

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#23811 - 09/15/06 07:35 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
MarcC Offline
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Quote:

Some sport routes and an ice park are exactly what I was thinking.



It would be amazingly cool to establish a bunch of sport routes on the privately owned sections of the Nears!!!
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#23812 - 09/15/06 08:07 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: MarcC]
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Sorry - bolting is not an allowable use in Zone SP-3, unless you grant an 80% easement for bouldering..

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#23813 - 09/18/06 05:47 PM Re: Near Trapps Ownership [Re: Kent]
Dillbag Offline
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Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Kent... and everyone else... thought this was interesting, heard it on my way into work this morning... I guess Gardiner isn't the only rural community going through this type of turmoil...

NPR STORY - Western Voters Weigh Shift in Property Rights

Interesting...

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