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#24467 - 10/09/06 01:50 PM
Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 201
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Just an FYI... Yesterday while riding back from Minne, I noticed a few LARGE stickers, looked like printed off on a computer 8.5inx11in size, signs that someone had pasted/attached/stuck to the driver side window of cars parked on the shoulder of Clove Rd right at 299... I am sure they parked there as things were full up by 10am... In fact I saw one of the people parking when I rode by about that time, and when I rode past at 330-4pm-ish, the signs were on the most of the cars there... The signs said something along the lines of this is a no parking area with a circle with a red slash through it. I just hope they were not really 'stuck' on the cars, that would suck, personally just leaving a note under the windowwipers should be OK, not sticking something on their cars... That is not too cool... 
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#24468 - 10/09/06 04:45 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Kevin]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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Hmmm....I made a post to this thread, saw it post and read it once it went through, and now it is gone. Though I know it wasn't completely on topic(Clove Road and only Clove Road, and the people who paste cars with No Parking on Clove Road...), I think it was a valid point. AND it offered a not-so-difficult to implement solution.
I went to contact the webmaster, but the page gave me an error message, so I'm asking here - why did you take away my post?
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#24469 - 10/09/06 04:57 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Terrie]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
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#24470 - 10/09/06 05:24 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Smike]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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You know....It took me some time/effort to write. It was "removed." It didn't just not post.
The gist was how congested the overlook was this weekend - with cars parked along 45/55 from the steel bridge all the way along and well past the overlook, and the the overlook spilling over. And, some idiot even parked on the INSIDE of the curve, and how an accident would be unavoidable if two cars were oncoming at that precise section of the road. And I mentioned an idea for a positive solution.
Anyway, I realized that the idea(car ferry to/from Coxing lot) might be an idea the preserve would actually consider, even though the overlook isn't their jurisdiction. So I emailed them directly.
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#24471 - 10/09/06 05:42 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Terrie]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
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Coxing lot is also full on peak weekends Cars were splattered all along 44/55 all the way to the back side overlook. (I almost took out 4 or 5 cars on my way back from cliff Sunday afternoon) Maybe over by Kents clear cut we could set up some additional parking. Hey shorter hike if your climbing at the bank.
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#24474 - 10/09/06 06:01 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Kent]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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maybe a software glitch...As I said, i tried to contact webmaster, and got an ewrror message.
You town shuttle is actually a very good idea....
Visitor number isn't going to be reduced by having no parking; but I can tell you that what I saw this weekend was a prime set up for an accident.
Preserve liability would *probably* come into question if one of the factors involved in an accident at the overlook area of the road was overflow parking on the streets. Hate to say it, but if there was a scammer around, it would be a perfect foil. Hit the state and a nonprofit with extensive land holdings.
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#24476 - 10/09/06 06:12 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Terrie]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Quote:
Preserve liability would *probably* come into question if one of the factors involved in an accident at the overlook area of the road was overflow parking on the streets.
I'm no lawyer, (calling delvis) but... I don't believe that the preserve would be liable for people parking on the roadside or in the overlook... They have closed the access trails from the road, which is a "good faith" effort and would probably alleviate any threat of liability.
Also, it is the state that should be enforcing the no parking laws on 44/55 (unless emergency) and in the overlook...
Of course I think that these topics have been beaten to death previously...
I for one can understand why local residents would be annoyed with people parking all up and down Clove Rd as it is quite narrow with very little shoulder in most spots. And as smike stated earlier, the Coxing Lot is usually full on busy weekends for two reasons, it is only a 10-15 minute walk from the West Trapps Lot (rather pleasant also) and that other crag (the one that's lost) is right up the trail from the Lot...
Kent your idea is interesting, but a more immediate solution would be for people to car-pool... how many of us climbers drive up and then meet our partners there?
And remember, it's not just the climbers this time of year, there are a lot of those leaf junkies out too! 
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#24477 - 10/09/06 06:42 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
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Quote:
I would have to provide a conservation analysis to get a special use permit to allow parking, and get a variance from the ZBA. But if we can get all that done, I'm game.
Dam Gardiner zoning laws grrrrr....... 
Given the number crawling all over the cliff this past weekend, where would you put these extra users once the short bus dropped them off? It causes NOMRNSC issues (Not On My Runout No Star Classic) Those are the best cure for those crowded weekends
.
The far better solution (long term, but being negotiated slowly as we speak) is open all the other white rock in that other park. Seems they are far better to handle the overflow.
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#24482 - 10/09/06 07:46 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Jannette]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Jannette, I think that is a common occurrence... In fact, I used to be one of the people doing the same. Have you considered, meeting in town (there are lots of great eats, refer to the evans maps and lots of parking in the morning) or maybe leaving a car at the multi-use (if your camping)? Meeting in town saves on several levels... it saves on parking multiple cars at the preserve... saves on some gas $$, and more importantly, it saves you from eating a mediocre at best sandwich that costs as much as a six-pack of micro-brew!!! 
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!
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#24483 - 10/09/06 07:52 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Jannette]
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old hand
Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: The Bayards
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The shuttle would be costly. All in, 9-12K a year. And then someone would have to be paid to drive it. That cost may seem high but the cost of a tragic accident on that stretch of road seems, to me, much higher.
Edited to add........ Of course, a shuttle may not prevent such an accident, but isn't life all about risk mitigation? Shouldn't FEMA get involved here? Where is the Department of Homeland Security? Well, actually, the DHS was just here raiding the folks in the front of the building for human trafficking, prostitution, money laundering, etc., along with the FBI and the local police department. Classy neighborhood it is.
Edited by Kent (10/09/06 08:10 PM)
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#24484 - 10/09/06 08:19 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Kent]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Quote:
The shuttle would be costly. All in, 9-12K a year. And then someone would have to be paid to drive it. That cost may seem high but the cost of a tragic accident on that stretch of road seems, to me, much higher.
A shuttle would be great... I'm not trying to be negative... okay, maybe a little bit... but only cause its kinda fun sometimes...
Here are some potential issues with the shuttle idea:
1) Traffic, there is no HOV lane to get to NP, it would take the shuttle way, way, way, too long on a normal peak season traffic day to perform even the shortest loop (NP -> Visitors Center)
2) Non-climbers, sure, to a climber what would be better than parking in NP and catching a shuttle up to the cliff, then returning and bieng right in downtown NP or jumping off at the MUA. But to a typical leafer or day-visitor, it's not that great, and how would they find out about it... Usually, these folks go pick (insert fruit/vegetable of choice), check out a winery, go for a "hike" (term used loosely) at the preserve and grab dinner at a local restaurant. Not easily accomplished via a shuttle.
3) Capacity, a "shuttle" usually only holds 20-25 people anything larger is going to be a full-on bus... which will cost a lot! So... you go out climb, go to catch the shuttle... and your thinking "Sweet, it's right there! No waiting" but in reality it's already full... and it's gonna be an hour (minimum) before it gets back... now your thinking "Stupid f-ing shuttle, stupid f-ing other people who aren't as good as me"
4) Cost, ok... so 9-12K, plus a driver, plus insurance, plus administration... oh and don't forget gas $$, even on bio-diesel it will get costly...
5) Access, who can ride it? Anyone? or do they have to purchase a day-pass or have a membership?
I am sure there are some other drawbacks as well, but for now that should do...
So we now have a fantasy shuttle that takes anywhere from 2-4 hours per loop, it's always crowded (even though the parking lots and overlook still look full), seems to just sit on Rt 299 forever... smells like dirt-bag (only on the weekend) climbers, and damn... I always seem to miss the last one!
I think I'll stick to driving in with my climbing partners! 
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#24486 - 10/09/06 08:40 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Kent]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Quote:
...beginner search and rescue high angle multi-pitch lift training in FEMA's new climbing risk mitigation program.
Where do I sign up for that class?
And is there a shuttle service?  I heard parking was tough at the last one
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#24487 - 10/09/06 10:12 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Dillbag]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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Sorry if I was a little paranoid, righteous crusader-y earlier....Mornings sometimes do that to me..... And also seems the thread has forgotten all about the post it person. Maybe that was someone from the Dept. of Homeland Security!
A shuttle bus from town wouldn't have to be preserve operated. Taxis drop people off on preserve grounds; so another private business should be able to do so as well. Unless the preserve took issue with there being a sort of designated spot for people to gather. I guess if someone wanted to do such a shuttle, they would look into it. Same as for those questions Dillbag posed. It would be a nice service to have though, and appreciated by the bus people at least. I can see how people with cars would probably not want to pay anything at all for a shuttle when they can just park along the street in front of the overlook.....
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#24488 - 10/10/06 12:38 AM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Kent]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
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Maybe my addled brain is remembering stuff that never happened, but I think I vaguely recall some kind of shuttle in the late 90's. Anyone else? Anyone? Bueller? It lasted two seasons at most and vanished due to lack of ridership.
_________________________
- Marc
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#24489 - 10/10/06 01:05 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
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In Yosemite, the traffic is nuts, it is loud and frustrating.... in comparison, in Zion (no cars allowed), with the shuttle (propane powered) it is quiet, with no traffic, and the shuttles are amazingly efficient & convenient.
Something like Zion perhaps?
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"
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#24490 - 10/10/06 02:03 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: d-elvis]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4238
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Or- people could just take days off during the week and not have to deal with the weekend crowds. Or,not climb at the gunks in peak season. Oh, I forgot, the rock is deteriorating so it's important to climb it before it goes away.
Gardiner should talk to Keene Valley about shuttling. They have successfully and effectively operated a hiker shuttle between Marcy field and the Garden parking lot for several years. But, providing a service to non-residents would be sort of ironic for Gardiner to do.
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#24491 - 10/10/06 02:20 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: strat]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2623
Loc: brooklyn
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I got to the West Trapps lot around 9:15 and I had to park below the gatehouse. Of course, they could have fit another 10 cars if people would park closer together. I think it would be better to have another ranger on duty there "helping" people park cars. I mean there's already someone at the steel bridge checking passes, so have him do all the collecting of money and have the ranger direct parking cars instead of just sending them up and allowing them to park with 8' between cars.
As for not going up on weekends, easy to say if you're a local. But for those of us who can only get up there on weekends, skipping a single weekend, especially when the forcast is favorable, really isn't an option.
_________________________
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#24492 - 10/10/06 03:03 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: strat]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
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Quote:
But, providing a service to non-residents would be sort of ironic for Gardiner to do.
It would make complete sense if Gardiner was going to stop all the bitching that the town of NP gets all the cash from visitors while lands [edited to add] and public services in Gardiner get the use, and set up a shuttle location in their town and give people a reason to go there and spend $$ in the private sector
Edited by Smike (10/10/06 03:26 PM)
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#24496 - 10/10/06 06:13 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Julie]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2623
Loc: brooklyn
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Not only that, but they'd "kitty cornered" a spot. Probably could have fit another car in there, but instead they set up lounge chairs there. Now that's pretty rude.
_________________________
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#24497 - 10/10/06 07:03 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Kent]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4238
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Quote:
But, providing a service to non-residents would be sort of ironic for Gardiner to do.
If I'm not mistaken, the Gardiner volunteer fire department/rescue squad responds to a high percentage of climbing accidents on the Preserve.
Of anyone who could appreciate the irony of my proposal, it should have been you, Kent, one who, in the past has complained about the fact that you have to pay for your own trash removal or take it to a landfill/transfer station yourself.
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#24499 - 10/10/06 07:54 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: Julie]
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 201
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I was not even going to mention the overlooks, put yeah, I saw the Vanagons as well... that was pretty rude of them, especially blocking a spot so they could have a 'patio'...
The upper overlook was full on my way up in the morning... that the lower one was full again in the afternoon... BTW, what is with the people selling jeans on the lower hairpin?...
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#24502 - 10/10/06 08:55 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Kent]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Quote:
tonight's town board agenda includes "6.1.3 Mohonk Preserve Parking"
Kent...
I'm assuming you will be in attendance at the meeting, do you mind posting a note on the parking issue, I think it would be interesting to hear about...
Delvis...
it sure would be grand if they could set it up like Zion, but I seriously doubt your gonna get them to close down 44/55 since its the main pass through the ridge... And the climber/hiker/tourist cars aren't making the noise it's those sweet harley's and jake-brakes which give the uberfall its distinctive wilderness appeal
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#24503 - 10/10/06 09:14 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Dillbag]
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 201
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Kent... I hope you are going... I would love to hear a report about what the issue they see about the parking situation is...
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#24504 - 10/10/06 09:34 PM
Re: Look Out Parking on Clove Rd
[Re: d-elvis]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
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Quote:
... in comparison, in Zion (no cars allowed), with the shuttle (propane powered) it is quiet, with no traffic, and the shuttles are amazingly efficient & convenient.
Something like Zion perhaps?
The only reasons the Zion shuttle works so well are:
1) No other vehicles other than bicycles
2) A shockingly large number of shuttles, especially when combined with....
3) A very tiny area of service - one-way mileage is less than from the Mtn. Deli to Coxing.
Yosemite is the more apt comparison to the Gunks, but on a smaller scale.
_________________________
- Marc
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#24505 - 10/11/06 10:55 AM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Kevin]
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old hand
Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: The Bayards
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Dill, Kevin, about the town meeting.
"Mohonk Preserve Parking" was a bit of a misnomer. The topic of discussion was the overlook and hairpin turn parking. Apparently consensus has been reached among the Town of Gardiner, NYDOT, NY State Police, Ulster County Sheriff's Office, and the MP, that the 30 minute rule at the hairpin turn and the overlook lot should be enforced. How it will be enforced hasn't been worked out yet. That's what the discussion was about.
There must be some bad juju going on in that area of late. As someone else noted in another thread there was yet another climbing accident yesterday, again at Frog's Head, this one not so serious it seems. But sadly, there was a very serious head on collision yesterday morning, at about 8:30, on 44/55 just west of the Trapps Bridge, pretty much in the heart of what all of us consider to be hallowed ground. I don't have any details other than it was very bad.
Ten stars to everyone everywhere.
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#24508 - 10/11/06 12:39 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Kent]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
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Quote:
But sadly, there was a very serious head on collision yesterday morning, at about 8:30, on 44/55 just west of the Trapps Bridge, pretty much in the heart of what all of us consider to be hallowed ground. I don't have any details other than it was very bad.
When leaving home one Sunday eve about 2 months ago I came across a head on where 44/55 crosses the coxing kill (about a mile west of the West Trapps) All I can say is I never what to see that again in life. That road going over the ridge is inherently bad on its own design. Whether the parking is 30 minutes (enforced) or long term would make no difference in that regard. No parking and no pull offs might make is slightly safer, but I dont think thats the way to go.
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#24510 - 10/11/06 04:50 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Kent]
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old hand
Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
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Quote:
Dill, Kevin, about the town meeting.
"Mohonk Preserve Parking" was a bit of a misnomer. The topic of discussion was the overlook and hairpin turn parking. Apparently consensus has been reached among the Town of Gardiner, NYDOT, NY State Police, Ulster County Sheriff's Office, and the MP, that the 30 minute rule at the hairpin turn and the overlook lot should be enforced. How it will be enforced hasn't been worked out yet. That's what the discussion was about.
Im not sure how that parking lot / turn-around is owned but it seems like an easy and lucrative enforcement is start towing cars. When my wife was in school in Boston the off campus apartment parking lot had spaces that were at a high premium (2 spaces per apartment but each apartment had 6 people in it
you do the math) so the apartment slumlord contracted with a tow company to tow cars if they didnt have a sticker. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. The landlord got a percentage from the tow guy to give him an exclusive right to tow (who knows if this was legal) and the tow company had his name and number on signs around the lot so youd know where to go claim your car
and pay the $150 fee.
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#24511 - 10/11/06 05:08 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: chazman]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Quote:
Im not sure how that parking lot / turn-around is owned
As far as I know the "parking lot", if we're talking about the overlook and the turn-around at the hairpin, is owned by the state/county as it is part of the road... which is why the state and local police are involved in enforcement...
Hopefully they won't start towing... the overlook is a bit tight to try and get a tow started without smashing several other cars...
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#24512 - 10/11/06 05:42 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
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"Hopefully they won't start towing... the overlook is a bit tight to try and get a tow started without smashing several other cars..."
hahahaha, tow truck drivers don't care about dings! Once saw a Philly parking Authority towing a pickup at 5th and Walnut Sts. Tow truck couldn't navigate the turn and hooked the pickup on a pole, it left a nice gash. Reasonable care is tough to prove in court. I hope they start towing, it should be entertaining to watch.
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#24513 - 10/12/06 12:47 AM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: alicex4]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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So sad about a bad accident in that section of road. I can tell you that I sometimes shudder, driving toward the bridge after getting out of the Trapps lot at how fast some people cruise that section, even in foggy conditions. Knowing there could be people walking accross the street under the bridge, I just don't understand how people can be so unthinking.
When I am walking with my dog from Slime to the Nears, I fear for his safety too. People go SO fast there. Both ways. With curves in the road, and people not staying on their side of the lines, it's easy to see how head ons occur.
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#24516 - 10/17/06 08:53 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Julie]
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addict
Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
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That's the insidious nature of the blatant overlook parking violations. People get the idea that if no one is enforcing those, why not park wherever you feel like?
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#24517 - 10/17/06 09:05 PM
Re: Town Board Meeting
[Re: Julie]
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 201
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Over on another climbing website, there is mention that people got ticketed over the weekend....
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Trans-VD... which could consist of old VW micro-buses and rusted out pick-up trucks... 
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