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#25646 - 11/07/06 12:25 PM Election Day One Finger Victory Salute
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
OUR

COMMANDER

IN

CHIEF

(click each one and be aware some contain scenes of graphic violence)
(for those who viewed before 8 AM I changed the first clip)


Edited by Kent (11/07/06 12:54 PM)

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#25647 - 11/07/06 03:16 PM Re: Election Day One Finger Victory Salute [Re: Kent]
Daniel Online   content
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
Thanks for posting the second clip. The suspension of habeas corpus, and the public's willingness to go along with it, is truly astounding.

I must comment that there is some debate as to whether it applies to US citizens or only to non-citizens. But to me the distinction is irrelevant in terms of deciding what we stand for. If another country declared some of our citizens enemy combatants and said it could imprison them for as long as they wanted without charge and denied them the ability to challenge their detention, would we say, "Fine, keep them holed up as long as you want"?

By undermining the basic notions of fairness and due process that once made us an example to the world, we are reinforcing the worst notions of those that oppose us. Moreover, I fail to see how it makes us safer. Keeping innocent people in jail does not make us safer. It makes us less safe because when those people are eventually released (and many who were held at Guantanamo have been released), they'll go back to their towns and tell their family, friends, and neighbors about how those hateful Americans kept them locked up for no reason and gave them no chance to prove their innocence, so maybe those people who really are terrorists should get their support after all. And providing due process for those who really should be held does not pose any real threat: if they're as bad as the President says they are, we should have no problem showing that they should stay put.

As Professor Turley says in the video clip, our nation was founded on the principle that no person or group of people should have absolute power. Yet we have given one person the ability to take away the liberty of others, purely on his say-so. Prior incursions on our basic liberties are now looked upon with regret and shame. I hope we have the ability to view this one in the same light in the years to come.

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#25648 - 11/07/06 06:03 PM Re: Election Day One Finger Victory Salute [Re: Daniel]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

If another country declared some of our citizens enemy combatants and said it could imprison them for as long as they wanted without charge and denied them the ability to challenge their detention,




Not strong enough wording Daniel. We don't just imprison them, we torture them as we see fit.

Personally I won't feel better about it till it is stopped.
It would also make me feel better about our country if those responsible were tried for war crimes or other simmilar charges, and found guilty in our justice system.

Added:
How can people keep asking and who else would I vote for?
Same answer I've given for years now, anybody else!!!!!

Death is not the worst thing in the world. I would much, much, much rather be killed than tortured.


Edited by mworking (11/07/06 06:25 PM)

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#25649 - 11/07/06 06:31 PM Re: Election Day One Finger Victory Salute [Re: mworking]
Daniel Online   content
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
Not strong enough wording Daniel. We don't just imprison them, we torture them as we see fit.

Two responses. First, the clip was about habeas corpus, not about tourture.

Second, some people justify Guantanamo by saying that the prisoners are treated well. I say that I don't care if they're getting massages and fillet mignon. Even under the best of conditions, the fact of their confinement is an abomination to the most basic values this country was founded on. The torture issue is important on its own terms, but it's separate from the habeas issue, and we shouldn't let the question of how people are treated muddle the question of why they're there to begin with. As I wrote before, I think our government wouldn't tolerate indefininte imprisonment of US citizens abroad, even if those citizens were not being mistreated. (But we've thrown away so many of our nation's values, maybe I'm wrong about that. I hope not.)

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#25650 - 11/07/06 07:07 PM Re: Election Day One Finger Victory Salute [Re: Daniel]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Quote:

Two responses. First, the clip was about habeas corpus, not about tourture...



I mostly agree with your reply. Note that I can not view the clips here.
Quote:

Second, some people justify Guantanamo by saying that the prisoners are treated well.



My comments on your second sentence:
I would assume that these are the same people that belive holding them at all is OK, so what does that tell you? Anyway I now understand that you weren't addressing torture, but to me it is a greater evil. As I wrote, I'd rather simply be killed.

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#36870 - 05/03/08 03:26 PM Re: Election Day One Finger Victory Salute [Re: Daniel]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5981
Loc: 212 land
The torture issue is important on its own terms



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#36996 - 05/13/08 02:00 PM Re: Election Day One Finger Victory Salute [Re: oenophore]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 209
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson
Wow.

As a young man I thought I would serve my country as an Officer in the US Army. I wanted to be a tank commander in Germany. Also, I didn't want my family to pay for my college education, i.e.-ROTC.

After two years, pre-contract, I decided to get out of ROTC and get college loans instead. Sometimes I wonder if I had stayed where would I be. Would I be in Iraq or Afghanistan?

As an Officer you take an oath to protect the Constitution. As a NCO (Non Commissioned Officer) sergeants and the like, you take an oath to serve the president.

If I were an Officer today, I would have already approached my soldiers and stated that freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution are being dismantled and it is our duty and obligation to stop it. Then, I would say, "let's role". If they would have followed me to protect our children’s freedom we would have armored up and gone to the White House to stop it. So, sorry, since I’m not an Officer I guess it won’t happen and we will end up with, well, who knows. One thing is I never thought we would be torturing people. That’s what the bad guys did and it was us that stopped it.

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