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#27489 - 03/03/07 10:20 PM
It's all about money.....
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stranger
Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 14
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#27491 - 03/04/07 04:05 AM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: MDimitri]
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veteran
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 1256
Loc: Rochester, NY
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From the Mohonk website;
Experience Rock Climbing at Sky Top!
Sky Top is the most dramatic view on the Shawangunk Ridge.
Its prominent face and stone tower stand out boldly along the northern ridge and can be seen for miles from the valley below. Sky Top is home to over 300 documented rock climbs, many of which are sought-after classics to Gunks climbers, routes such as: Lakeview, Strawberry Yogurt, Peties Spare Rib, Sound and Fury, Foops, Supercrack, Grey Face, Jekyll and Hyde, Pilgrims Progress, and more.
Starting April 1, 2007, overnight guests of Mohonk Mountain House can participate in rock climbing at Sky Top while escorted by an authorized guide from Alpine Endeavors. Climbing will be available seven days a week, from April 1 through November 30. Due to insurance concerns, and interaction with other Mohonk Mountain House scheduled events, only those guests escorted with an Alpine Endeavors authorized guide will be allowed to climb at Sky Top. Unescorted guests, day guests, and the public are not permitted to rock climb at Sky Top at this time.
Lake Mohonk
Climbing at Sky Top will be offered to all ability levels -- from complete beginners to experienced climbers. Sky Top offers an abundance of high quality rock climbing on routes of all difficulties. If you have never rock climbed before, or are an advanced climber, Sky Top will provide you with an incredible experience you will never forget.
There are three options available daily to overnight guests:
Overnight guests can book an all-day session, 9am5pm
Overnight guests can attend a half-day sessions as available:
Morning: 9am-1pm
Afternoon: 2pm-6pm
Private group outings for overnight guests up to 20 participants
To maximize the experience and instruction for Mohonk Mountain House guests, all programs will maintain a low climber to guide ratio. Guests can choose to hire a guide privately or participate with a group.
Here are the suggested ratios:
For multi-pitch rock climbing, 1:1 to 2:1
For single pitch and/or group programs, 1:1 to 4:1
In addition to basic climbing instruction and guiding, more advanced technical skills will be available. For more information on the advanced courses offered to overnight guests at Mohonk Mountain House, please view our Sky Top Climbing Courses.
For overnight reservations at Mohonk Mountain House , please call 1-800-772-6646 and specify your interest in rock climbing.
_________________________
At this point in my life I should be daryl5.3 not daryl512
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#27492 - 03/04/07 12:36 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: daryl512]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2941
Loc: LI, NY
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good for them. might as well capitalize on what theyve got.
_________________________
tOOthless
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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#27495 - 03/04/07 02:44 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: MDimitri]
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old hand
Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
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The thing I find disgusting about the situation is that now Marty has a deep-seated interest in keeping Skytop closed to the non stinky wealthy public forever. Guides should be able to make a living, obviously, but that is mighty divisive to the climbing community.
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#27497 - 03/04/07 11:41 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4158
Loc: Poughkeepsie
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Quote:
The thing I find disgusting about the situation is that now Marty has a deep-seated interest in keeping Skytop closed to the non stinky wealthy public forever. Guides should be able to make a living, obviously, but that is mighty divisive to the climbing community.
Rubbish. There would be a lot more guided business there off the general public than off the small population of athletic hotel guests.
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#27498 - 03/05/07 02:25 AM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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old hand
Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
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Quote:
Quote:
The thing I find disgusting about the situation is that now Marty has a deep-seated interest in keeping Skytop closed to the non stinky wealthy public forever. Guides should be able to make a living, obviously, but that is mighty divisive to the climbing community.
Rubbish. There would be a lot more guided business there off the general public than off the small population of athletic hotel guests.
Perhaps, but he wouldn't very likely get an exclusive deal to guide every climbing party at skytop if the general public were allowed in. Right now going through his guide service is the only way in. That's a pretty strong incentive if you ask me.
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#27500 - 03/05/07 03:26 AM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: MDimitri]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 178
Loc: Long Island N.Y.
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This looks like a chink in the armor.
_________________________
I can't climb enough!
But I am climbing more!!
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#27501 - 03/05/07 03:49 AM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Spiderman]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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You know.....
On Supertopo right now, Jeff Lowe has been fundraising for a local climbing park by offering a pretty hefty package that includes guide services and crap like that. He's raised $6,000 already and has another $3K working....
Maaaaybeeee....there might be some potential to create a similar fundraiser for the Rosendale Water Works using a similar tactic. Like, suppose we could get a superstar like Lynn Hill and others to volunteer their services(or be paid a stipend, by being a "proxy" guide for Alpine Endeavors), and have a weekend package at the Mountain House that includes climbing Skytop.
Edit: Congratulations to Marty on putting together a great situation. I don't really know how anyone who knows Marty could think he'd have "a vested interest" in keeping the Skytop thing to himself through nonsupport of opening Skytop in general. He just doesn't seem to be the sort who would have an agenda like that.
Edited by Terrie (03/05/07 03:52 AM)
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#27502 - 03/05/07 02:47 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: MDimitri]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2326
Loc: Boston
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What a bunch of whiners! I can't believe it, a first step in allowing climbers to touch Skytop rock, legally, sanctioned by the Mohonk House, and everyone's whining about how it's not enough.
Grow the fuck up. No, I can't afford it either, but so far as I'm concerned, it's a huge step forward in many ways. I never thought I'd ever have the chance to climb at Skytop. Now I definitely think it's conceivable.
Maybe some folks are pissy because now they won't be able to sneak in and climb as easily, with guided services all over? If so, that's pretty lame.
Thank you Mountain House, for recognizing the value of the climbing on Skytop. Of course, in time, I hope that the chance to climb at Skytop might become accessible to more of us, but I'm grateful that you've found a way through the insurance costs, and any other issues you had with allowing it, once again.
GO
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#27503 - 03/05/07 03:58 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: GOclimb]
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old hand
Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
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Quote:
What a bunch of whiners! I can't believe it, a first step in allowing climbers to touch Skytop rock, legally, sanctioned by the Mohonk House, and everyone's whining about how it's not enough.
Grow the fuck up. No, I can't afford it either, but so far as I'm concerned, it's a huge step forward in many ways. I never thought I'd ever have the chance to climb at Skytop. Now I definitely think it's conceivable.
Maybe some folks are pissy because now they won't be able to sneak in and climb as easily, with guided services all over? If so, that's pretty lame.
Thank you Mountain House, for recognizing the value of the climbing on Skytop. Of course, in time, I hope that the chance to climb at Skytop might become accessible to more of us, but I'm grateful that you've found a way through the insurance costs, and any other issues you had with allowing it, once again.
GO
Cut the load of crap, GO. Cursing at me doesn't get your point across very well. I do not see how this brings us one step closer to legalized public climbing that the general public can afford. This isn't about the MMH recognizing the value of climbing at Skytop beyond them recognizing the value to their pocketbooks. And I personally think, although it's certainly debatable, that this move makes us less likely to ever see climbing at skytop by the general public.
Oh, and I don't know Marty personally so I am not slandering him as an individual. I was/am looking at the economics of the situation. This is the only way for him to get an exclusive deal at skytop so i think his (and Mike Rawdon's) interests lie in keeping it closed to the public. But time will tell as far as how many people stay at Mohonk with the intention of climbing there.
I hope that I am wrong about what this means but i see nothing at all inherent about this development meaning that we are closer to climbing at skytop without a $600 surcharge.
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#27505 - 03/05/07 04:07 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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old hand
Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 761
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First I believe it is private land, and I am thankful the earlier owners had the generosity to set up the preserve - even if there was some benefit to them at the time. I also feel MMH is private land and that as far as climbing is concerned they can and should be able to do whatever they want with. Still I'm not at all convinced this is a step forward. I sure won't be in the short run for exactly the reason you mention Quote:
What a bunch of whiners! I can't believe it, a first step in allowing climbers to touch Skytop rock, legally, sanctioned by the Mohonk House, and everyone's whining about how it's not enough.
Well it was truly silly of the MMH not to do this long ago. They get at least some insurance coverage from the guide. The get free policing of the area from guides and clients. Most importantly for them, fostering the activity can only attract clients, especially younger ones which they sorely need. Before this Skytop was simply an unused financial resource.
Quote:
Grow the fuck up. No, I can't afford it either, but so far as I'm concerned, it's a huge step forward in many ways. I never thought I'd ever have the chance to climb at Skytop. Now I definitely think it's conceivable.e]
Maybe some folks are pissy because now they won't be able to sneak in and climb as easily, with guided services all over? If so, that's pretty lame.
Thank you Mountain House, for recognizing the value of the climbing on Skytop. Of course, in time, I hope that the chance to climb at Skytop might become accessible to more of us, but I'm grateful that you've found a way through the insurance costs, and any other issues you had with allowing it, once again.
GO
Sorry, I cant help but feel there is less chance I will climb there now. Unless, unless - want to do some more night climbing? I wish I felt better about it.
Mike you might be surprised and get more time over there than you imagined. Besides, dont you need to learn those routes really well to maximize client safety and so you can better aid those clients. It is good advertising to let prospective clients see people on the rock too.
OK, I'm not selfish. I am glad someone will be able to climb there, I just dont think it is going to help the climbing community at large. I will be very happy to be wrong about this.
Edited by mworking (03/05/07 04:14 PM)
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#27506 - 03/05/07 05:19 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Mike Rawdon]
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enthusiast
Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 242
Loc: NJ
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Mike - What are you and your co-workers going to do when you are guiding at Skytop and see other, non-guided, climbers there? Quote:
Would you be happier if the rules allowed ANY guided client to climb there? Would that make it more appealing to you? It certainly wouldn't make it any more accessible.
I think you meant to say "guided HOTEL GUEST" rather than "guided client" here. Obviously the hotel guest restriction puts considerably more overhead on the experience than does the guided requirement.
John
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#27507 - 03/05/07 05:28 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: mworking]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2554
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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Most of us didn't climb there much when it was permitted because of the hike. Yes, the climbing there is great and it was fun to follow the sun around on cold days or run away from it on the hotter ones, but the real better attractions there are the 10s and up. We are now experiencing significantly more crowding and so it seems more attractive to go to Skytop. I'm hopeful that Marty, et al, do an amazing business and draw all prospective guided groups to Skytop and away from the Trapps, but I fear this will be limited by the number of climbs that are good for beginners. Good on you, Marty. I don't think anyone in their right mind would pass up this opportunity and you have earned it by being a class act. I'm glad someone will enjoy the place.
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#27508 - 03/05/07 05:29 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: GOclimb]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: in your backyard
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There are distinctions that must be made with the following
1. Climbing Skytop rock, legally, sanctioned by the Mohonk House
2. General public allowed climbing Skytop rock, legally, sanctioned at reasonable terms
The Guide Service deal brokered with the MMH will allow #1 but is exclusive of #2 (as much as some wish to believe they can be interchangeable, they are not) Thinking this is a fist step to having climbing allowed at Skytop at reasonable means (Meaning consistence with the terms of the nearby Mohonk Lands) would be like thinking the MMH will have $20 camping sites next to the hotel one day.
Good for Marty working such a deal, as the alternative is not some day allow general climbing at Skytop but Zero sanctioned climbing at Skytop period I dont like the reality of the situation but I cant personally blame Marty for such a move. At least some of the anchors will get re-freshed
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#27509 - 03/05/07 05:45 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Smike]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2624
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Free at last, free at last, free at last
! Good God Almighty Sky Top is free at last.  I feel like reciting the I have a dream speech by Dr King
 But Im just a white punk type dude trying to make a living by fen off sitting in front of a computer.  And all you none believers said it wouldnt happen
Ha! And Double Ha! Da Money Talks and the BS walks baby So its a big Amen fo da monay  Phil
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#27511 - 03/05/07 06:53 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: MDimitri]
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old hand
Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
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Honestly, if you just had to be a guest at the MMH, I would stay there just to climb at Skytop legally. But I'm not going to pay to be guided also. In general, i just don't want to be guided. I want to go out with my partner and go to the top.
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#27512 - 03/05/07 07:30 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2554
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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LTL, I think most of us agree with your statement. My family spends a 5-7 day vacation at a resort somewhere to get everyone together. That would be at the MHM EVERY YEAR if that was all it took to climb there. I think the insurance concern was a large factor.
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#27513 - 03/05/07 07:33 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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So... I'm sitting here at work (hooray...) and wondering...
The main reason the MMH did and continues to not allow general public or preserve members to climb at Skytop is... "Insurance"
Now, my question is this:
They are now sanctioning and encouraging people to climb (albiet with a guide) at Skytop. Doesn't this put them at a higher legal responsibility for injuries or death sustained on the property?
This would be in comparison to a "Climb at your own risk" type of environment... I understand that the guide is going to have some sort of insurance too, but if an accident occurs... It could be that people would go after the MMH as they have "money" rather than the guide?
Could a lawyer type please respond to this... Anyone who is not a lawyer type please keep your pieholes shut!
If this scenario is true that it puts them at a "higher" risk... then isn't the whole insurance reason a load of crap?
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!
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#27514 - 03/05/07 07:36 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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stranger
Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 14
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A couple of observations:
The Hotel has, in the past, repeatedly turned down the offers of free insurance posted by the Access fund to allow continued climbing at Skytop.
My guess is the number of "climber guests" that will avail themselves of this service solely to go climbing at over a $1,200 per wkend will be rather low.
More likely the folks that avail themselves of this service will be guests who are already staying for a period of time & it is currently fashionable to have "extreme" activities for one's guests.
In short, those that benifit from this probably would be just as happy packed in at the guides wall except for the length of the walk.
So, the only real benificary of this deal will be the guide service-
As for this impacting the general public in a positive way, highly unlikely would be far too kind a response.
If history serves as a yard stick, the only lawsuits, or potentially signifigant suits in the climbing industry have been directed at manufactorers & guide services ( the Tetons fatal death accident comes to mind here involving Exum) so in effect the hotel is opening up themselves to the very thing that they claim they're looking to avoid; being dragged into, and forced to defend any type of lawsuit regardless of there being an existing insurance policy.
For, what I can only assume is a very lowly amount of increased revenue.
However; it is their private property and they can do as they wish.
Not withstanding, RR's proclamation; that anyone would do it too.
No, you're wrong, personally, I wouldn't do it- but I recognise that we all have different views, levels and views of integrity and financial needs.
Bottom line, Skytop is closed unless you're going to stay as a guest (dble nights occupancy plsse) and hire a guide.
I wonder who i'd direct my complaints to after doing all this; that my guide couldn't lead Super Crack or Vandals for me...??? Maybe there is a discount for top roping.....
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#27515 - 03/05/07 07:45 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4158
Loc: Poughkeepsie
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Quote:
Honestly, if you just had to be a guest at the MMH, I would stay there just to climb at Skytop legally. But I'm not going to pay to be guided also. In general, i just don't want to be guided. I want to go out with my partner and go to the top.
Well maybe that's step two in the re-opening scenario - that only MMH guests can climb there. It certainly would cut down on the riff-raff that some feel was partly responsible for the closure (i.e. foul mouthed climbers swearing at hotel guests. I personally have never bought the insurance issue as the reason, though I hear it was a huge part of the negotiations to effect this new arrangement.) Or maybe step two is a separate Skytop fee. Not Preserve cheap (I know, it ain't cheap now), but something to fatten the MMH coffers. Maybe $50/person/day. Yes, it IS all about the money...the hotel is not a not-for-profit operation. Never has been. To judge them by holding them to altruistic standards is simply to ignore their capitalistic purpose.
Shakes - I don't know what we will do if we see Brownd, er, I mean any bandit climbers there. But the Mt House will be sitting down with each of us before this goes live to explain "the rules". This may well be covered in that orientation.
And yes, I did mean to ask what difference it would make if the deal were with all guide services but still limited to hotel guests. That wouldn't do any more to open up Skytop to "normal" ridge climbers. So the fact that only AE was selected for this initial partnership is a bit of a red herring.
Edited by Mike Rawdon (03/05/07 07:55 PM)
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#27516 - 03/05/07 08:25 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: learningtolead]
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old hand
Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
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Quote:
Honestly, if you just had to be a guest at the MMH, I would stay there just to climb at Skytop legally. But I'm not going to pay to be guided also. In general, i just don't want to be guided. I want to go out with my partner and go to the top.
We looked into a long weekend there for the family (4 of us) since we love to hike the area... we wound up going to Ireland for a week for not much more. We only did it online but I suspect they were either putting us in a suite (since there were 4 of us) or forcing us into 2 rooms... either way it is very expensive to stay there. Meals included but from what I hear the food is lame. Otherwise I think it's great news they are allowing climbing there regardless of what they choose to charge.
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#27518 - 03/05/07 09:39 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: talus]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: in your backyard
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Well Talus, I guess youll have to get outta bed early now so you dont get beat by guides to your favorite route..
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#27521 - 03/05/07 09:55 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Dillbag]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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In all seriousness though, what Mike D. was saying about this situation is pretty much how I think a lot of us feel...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!
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#27522 - 03/05/07 10:26 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2941
Loc: LI, NY
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plopplopplopplopplop.
MMH owns the land. they want to make a bundle on selling the climbing. they have every right to do so. get over it.
if i had a piece of property with a cliff on it, i might be inclined to do the same.
_________________________
tOOthless
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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#27524 - 03/05/07 11:41 PM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: oenophore]
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journeyman
Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 63
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Michael D is absolutely right. I wouldn't do it either. This is a stab in the back to a great history of Shawangunk climbing and to all those contemporary climbers who will forever be denied access to that wonderful crag. For that kind of $ you mind as well book a flight to Araps where you can stay in blissfull poverty at the Pines.
This is a disgrace to the climbing community - everything need not be about$$$$$
I'll never wear a frickin helmut at Skytop!!!!
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#27526 - 03/06/07 02:43 AM
Re: It's all about money.....
[Re: Smike]
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veteran
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1220
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Quote:
Well Talus, I guess youll have to get outta bed early now so you dont get beat by guides to your favorite route..
Had Breakfast there a month ago. Nothing like an early morning run up to the MMH for some fresh fruit, Danish, OJ, and coffee. Everyone should do it. Thanks MMH!
Is it ok to post Skytop photos now?
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#27528 - 03/06/07 05:38 AM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: GOclimb]
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stranger
Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 14
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If it's not about money-
Well, I stand corrected.
So, how many of you who support this are going to reach into your wallet pull out your shinny silver AMEX and sign up for a wkend of climbing w/ your partner...???
Oh, why not....???
Felix is right, it's enough to get you to Oz.
So on that note, I'm going back to packing.
I lve tomorrow.
Adieu
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#27529 - 03/06/07 01:32 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: crackers]
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addict
Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 610
Loc: Bergen County NJ
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They run a Mountain House, whose guests pay them well, and catering to them must be a top priority in the business. When climbers were few and added a mystique to the property, and when the climbers gave wide berth to and yielded the right-of-way to the MH guests, they were tolerated. But when there were many more climbers and when the mentality became climber-centered and MH guests were considered wealthy know-nothing 'tourons' who got in the climbers way, when trash and loud foul language became the norm then there were complaints by the guests, and the full access had to be taken away.
This is a positive step. Climbing has gotten more mainstream to the point where the wealthy guest may be interested in giving it a try. Guests who do that may return and ultimately may want the opportunity to go without a guide. Perhaps the accomodation then can be expanded to others in the future if a way can be found to keep the focus in line with the MH mission, which is always guest focused and part of which must be to remain a viable business.
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#27531 - 03/06/07 01:56 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: RangerRob]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4237
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Is your name Tommy? Did Pete Townshend write a rock opera about you? Do you have crazy flipper fingers? Why are climbers pissed off by this development? Because this development gives legal access to only a very very very small segment of the climber population. Those that can access the cliff have to have a ball and chain, like Mike Rawdon, tied to them.  It would be like someone saying "Well, I'm a Ranger, I have special priviledges to climb this ice over here, but, only because I'm a Ranger can I climb over here. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" Only, the pre-req in this case is that you have the cash to pay an inordinate amount of money for second rate lodging, crappy food, in a mediocre setting so that you can climb a wee-little short cliff. Besides, don't you know that access, by climbers, to all pieces of rock, wether ecologically fragile or on private land is a God-given right?
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#27533 - 03/06/07 02:46 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: RangerRob]
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stranger
Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 14
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Mike, you honestly wouldn't go climb at Skytop if you were given permission and paid for it?
I can't imagine why anyone would write me a check & give me permision to go climbing anywhere, let alone skytop.
What I said was I wouldn't run a guide service on Mohonk under these covenents.
My perspective however is me looking back. I had over 20+ years of unrestricted climbing at SkyTop. It's an awesome crag, and I think it's too bad that the only folks that are going to get to climb there probably would be just as happy riding ponies are the trails.
Why would I pay to stay at a hotel 2 miles from my hse & pay to climb w/ someone I don't even know..??
Clearly, they own the land & it's there's to do with as they plse; same for the guide service, but would I do it?? No, I would not, but I often find myself at odds w/ what most people think is perfectly acceptable.
How is that a question of ethics or values?
The short answer is everything one does and how one does it in life reflects both value and ethics.
If this still doesn't make sense to you I'd be happy to buy you a beer and explain why I think how and why our actions are a direct reflection of one's values and ethics.
Secondly, is someone who climbs there against the hotels wishes more or less ethical?
Nope, same as the asshole who sneaks in to steal milk & cookies. As a matter of point, I do not climb at Skytop, though as a locale who has such easy access to the cliffs certainly could. I may not like the fact it's private land and it's clsed to climbing but I certainly do respect their wishes.
And it has nothing to do w/ the concept that it will ever be opened to the public again given the outstanding liability concerns, I think this issue is as dead as the witch that Dorothy dropped a house on. My opinion, and I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.
No one seems to be pissed off at the people who continually go against the property owners wishes and climb there illegally, but then someone makes a deal to take hotel guests there to climb and NOW climbers are pissed off? Sorry, I just don't follow the reasoning
Are you speaking for me..??? You clearly don't know me well enough to make the arguement that it's ok to trespass, for ANY reason.
I'd fit right in at Ruby Ridge.
I think it's too bad that the only folks who will climb there probably could care less.
My opinion, no more, no less.
I don't like it, but I respect it.
Nor would I PERSONALLY be part of it.
End of story-
What about this don't you understand..??
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#27534 - 03/06/07 02:58 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: MDimitri]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
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well...a stealth bandits can look at this development as a "new, improved" pinball game.... Fats-action bumpers installed(the guides who know you are ther under radar) and the discomfort of it all, upon rubbing up against them in a daze work....
Not my cup of tea, but then, I can be happy riding the ponies(ie; climbing the well-traveled Trapps and Nears routes).
Now...if I can find someone to take me out to some "other" places.....that, I would consider to be a heady brew. I'm too chicken to venture on my own, and have no partner stupid enough to follow me.
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#27536 - 03/06/07 03:24 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: MDimitri]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2326
Loc: Boston
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Quote:
If it's not about money-
Well, I stand corrected.
So, how many of you who support this are going to reach into your wallet pull out your shinny silver AMEX and sign up for a wkend of climbing w/ your partner...???
Oh, why not....???
Felix is right, it's enough to get you to Oz.
So on that note, I'm going back to packing.
I lve tomorrow.
Adieu
Certainly not me. You're right, even if I could afford it, it's not worth it. Why would I pay that kind of $$ for a day at Skytop when I could spend the same to fly to the Valley and stay there for two weeks?
But perhaps those who are most frustrated are, unlike me, people who much more deeply want to be able to climb there. People who feel that something of great value to them is now being given to someone who doesn't care about it that much, but just happens to have more $$ than they know what to do with. Perhaps if I used to climb at Skytop, or if I had run out of great 5.10 and up climbs in the Trapps and the Nears I would feel similarly.
Well, for those of you who feel personally hurt by this development, I'm sorry, and I too hope that someday the access is opened up further.
But lashing out at the MMH is completely counter-productive. They're never going to just say - oh, let's let everyone climb again, no problem. That's just not a reality. What is a potential reality is for them to find a way to make a buck off the resource in their backyard, when the hotel itself is not making a lot of $$. Right now it's only a toe in the water, but, conceivably, it could be expanded, if they decide it's in their best interest.
GO
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#27537 - 03/06/07 03:30 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: talus]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: in your backyard
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Go walk around the crevice trail base at Skytop now, trash everywhere. More trash then Ive ever seen in any one place in noobville.
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#27539 - 03/06/07 06:20 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: phil]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: in your backyard
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Quote:
You guys are such weenies, stop your crying....
Admit it Phil, its kind of like a car wreak, you dont want to see one, but when one happens you cant help but look (or post as the case may be for you )
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#27540 - 03/06/07 06:22 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: phil]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4237
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Quote:
You guys are such weenies, stop your crying, get a real job and just book it.
But phil, I mean, uncle monkey cat, if I got the right kind of job, say, like these folks: http://www.alpineendeavors.com/about/guides.html
I might get paid for climbing there.
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#27541 - 03/06/07 06:29 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: phil]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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What's a "real job"?
Just wondering where I can get one... Cause from what Phil is saying they pay pretty damn well!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!
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#27542 - 03/06/07 06:31 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4237
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Quote:
What's a "real job"?
Just wondering where I can get one... Cause from what Phil is saying they pay pretty damn well!
You have a real job and if you weren't so damned cheap, you could afford it. Buck up. It's skytop time.
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#27543 - 03/06/07 06:32 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: MDimitri]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2605
Loc: brooklyn
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My GF was at the MMH for a business conference last summer. Had climbing been an option, I would have paid for a guide for the day... I'm sure I can still learn a thing or two from Mike.
I didn't like the MMH rooms. They were small, stuffy, and smelled like smoke thanks to the fireplace... who needs a fireplace in such a small room? The AC was a small window unit, probably purchased at Wal-Mart for $45 because it really sucked. There's no in-room internet access, and the Internet machines in the "business center" were loaded with spyware. The network actually crashed and no one could access the internet for a few hours. Cell service is spotty at best, non-existant in most areas unless you hike out to the tower. I would NOT pay $400+ a night to stay there.
But if someone else is paying the room fee, I'd be glad to have the chance to climb.
_________________________
"Be ot or bot ne ot, tath is the nestquoi." Thamle, by Malliwi Rapesheake
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#27544 - 03/06/07 06:38 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: strat]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: in your backyard
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Quote:
What's a "real job"?
Just wondering where I can get one... Cause from what Phil is saying they pay pretty damn well!
Buck up and host your wedding at the MMH. We can hit Foops after the ceremony and before the reception.
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#27545 - 03/06/07 07:01 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3416
Loc: pdx
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Quote:
Quote:
Honestly, I really don't think it's all about the "money".
It's about the "business"...
Umm... could you please explain the difference? I'm kinda confused... always thought a "business" was in it for the "money" otherwise it was called a "not for profit"
Love the Chronic reference btw. That video was hilarious!
Now, onto the edumacations...
Well, it would be about the money if it would justify the expense involved on a time value of money basis. I would imagine that it has cost the MMH several hundred man hours of senior staff and administrative staff to get to this point. I imagine that they have spent additional funds to explore and obtain insurance and other business needs prior to opening Skytop to their guests. Will it generate such a great amount of income that they recoup their investment this fiscal year?
An extremely rough calculation:
400 hours * $69 hour = $27 k
400 per room / .5 margin = $200
Guessing that their margin is 50% and assuming that they pay a 38% load on a $50 / hour synthetic employee, without the time value of money, they have to sell an additional 138 rooms to recoup the investment. That's without insurance or any other costs associated with this program. That's five additional rooms per weekend of the summer season, and it had better not rain. Again, no additional insurance or administrative costs are included in this analysis.
In my opinion, that's a big series of assumptions. I don't think that's a "money" decision, because it's pretty unlikely that this will pay off that investment this year. In three or four years, maybe. Investing that $27k in a CD or other security would likely be more profitable.
On the other hand, what does the decision offer the MMH? Well, I'd say that it allows the MMH to evaluate what the climbing community really offers to the business of the hotel. I'd guess that it helps the MMH get a number of interested parties off of their backs at least a little.
That is the difference between a "business" decision (ie something you *lose* money on but gain intangible value) and "money" decision...
I'd say that I would bet that the trash is mostly left by day visitors, not guests of the hotel. I'm ready to be wrong, I really have no idea, but I haven't tracked the litter bugs down and whacked them as much as I would enjoy it.
I'd also go so far as to say that those of you suggesting that the cost of skytop is equivalent to going to the arapiles are insane or unemployed. You obviously don't value your time.
It will take me at least five days to get to and return from the araps. While I've always wanted to go there and I indeed plan to go there, that simply is not a valid comparison for the majority of us. Maybe if you live in LA or Boulder, and any trip to the gunks is inherently a major trip, but that's just not the case for those of us living around the Gunks. MMH would be a weekend destination, something that the Arapiles are not likely to ever be for me...
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#27546 - 03/06/07 07:03 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: Smike]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3416
Loc: pdx
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Quote:
Quote:
What's a "real job"?
Just wondering where I can get one... Cause from what Phil is saying they pay pretty damn well!
Buck up and host your wedding at the MMH. We can hit Foops after the ceremony and before the reception.
Forget the wedding. How about the bachelor's party?
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#27547 - 03/06/07 07:06 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: crackers]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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#27550 - 03/06/07 07:15 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3416
Loc: pdx
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Quote:
Quote:
intangible value
which will equal $$$
No Dill, it don't. You don't pay taxes on it, it's not income, it ain't MONEY. You can't borrow on it, you can't put it in the bank, and it doesn't make Kent magically become your friend.
If you were seeking to sell the business, well, maybe then you'd be able to capitalize on the value of your brand, and the people buying your company would get "goodwill" which is totally different.
Dude, I'm excited for the bachelor's party!
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#27553 - 03/06/07 08:57 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: crackers]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2941
Loc: LI, NY
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did somebody say bachelor party?
_________________________
tOOthless
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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#27554 - 03/06/07 09:27 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: empicard]
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old hand
Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 761
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I think Talus is organizing it.
Its going to be pretty early, fairly short. Bring as little gear as you dare climb with and a pair of running shoes. Perhaps the groom and another can extend their visit by wearing Alpine Endeavors T-shirts!
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#27556 - 03/06/07 09:36 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: Dillbag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4237
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Shaping up to be the lamest bachelor party on the planet. tea, little sandwiches, running? If I can't make it because I'm in Shanghai, I'll go to an opium den the day of the event in your honor.
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#27557 - 03/06/07 10:43 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: strat]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2941
Loc: LI, NY
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did somebody say opium?
_________________________
tOOthless
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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#27558 - 03/06/07 10:51 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: crackers]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4158
Loc: Poughkeepsie
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Quote:
I don't think that's a "money" decision, because it's pretty unlikely that this will pay off that investment this year. In three or four years, maybe. Investing that $27k in a CD or other security would likely be more profitable.
If I learned anything in my financial analysis class, it's that a 3-4 year payoff is quite good. Corresponds to an ROI of 30% or so. Much better than typical CD/equity/paper returns, though these are characteristically different types of "investments" than what Crackers postulated, in that the principle is still there vs. the "sunk" labor expenditures he described.
And now back to our regularly scheduled bickering...
Edited by Mike Rawdon (03/07/07 10:55 AM)
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#27560 - 03/07/07 01:25 AM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: oenophore]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
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That would be the "gentleman" who was seen anchored to a skinny beech tree at the top of Roaring Brook Falls (see Ice Climbing forum for pics).
Or I could have just said Dillbag........
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!
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#27561 - 03/07/07 02:40 AM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: irisharehere]
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old hand
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
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Did somebody say "gentelman"?
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!
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#27562 - 03/07/07 01:38 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: Smike]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2624
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
You guys are such weenies, stop your crying....
Admit it Phil, its kind of like a car wreak, you dont want to see one, but when one happens you cant help but look (or post as the case may be for you )
I'm sorry Smike, this was just too dam easy...
Yeah, Climbing at Sky Top and Car wreaks kinda go together, dont they?
I promise... I'll never post anything about Sky Top again. 
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#27563 - 03/07/07 01:38 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: mworking]
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veteran
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1220
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Quote:
I think Talus is organizing it.
i am. ok I have to get Phil to wear his thong for the party.
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#27564 - 03/07/07 01:46 PM
Re: It's all about .....
[Re: strat]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2624
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
You guys are such weenies, stop your crying, get a real job and just book it.
But phil, I mean, uncle monkey cat, if I got the right kind of job, say, like these folks: http://www.alpineendeavors.com/about/guides.html
I might get paid for climbing there.
Now you're talking!
When you're become a guide there... I'll book you!
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