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#31394 - 07/20/07 08:24 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: mworking]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
Yah, you're quite right. Hadn't thought about that instance.

GO

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#31404 - 07/21/07 01:00 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: GOclimb]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
He said he moved the belayer, which implies a reidirect to me. But redirection is a different argument.
 Quote:
The folks who climb with me will testify that I haven't commented even once about their anchors, whether constructed with the rope, stretchy cordalettes, stiff cordalettes, or a combination of some or all of these.
From what I hear, this is true, and kudos to you for it. As our common friend once said to someone we were about to share a rap with: I don't care what knot we use as long as we don't have to talk about it.
 Quote:
I just explained why a person might choose to use a stretchy cordalette.
Which is actually the first useful piece of advice I've managed to glean from all of this. As you know, I object to one method being debunked without a better one being provided and I've yet to hear why any non-lette option is better than any-lette option (or even convincingly why one lette option is better than another). If a stretchy lette can really make a difference, well, that's an easy substitution. Are you saying that simply nylon vs. tech cord is really going to make a measurable difference in stretch for the distances involved? I don't like the bulkiness of nylon (why all of us who choose tech do, I'm sure) but I need a new a cordelette and I could perhaps be convinced.

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#31406 - 07/21/07 05:08 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: dalguard]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
As you know, I object to one method being debunked without a better one being provided and I've yet to hear why any non-lette option is better than any-lette option...


Whack-o-lette issues:

95% of the time they offer only extra complexity.

They're more time consuming.

You get to lug around an extra 20 or 30 feet of cord.

They don't offer appreciably more "safety" or "security".

They're a pain in the ass.
_________________________
- Marc

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#31409 - 07/21/07 09:21 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: dalguard]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Though I don’t normally use any-ollete, but I have to admit I bought into the stretchy argument long a go. Now though I am having second thoughts as to the actual benefit of a stretchy vs. non-stretchy.

Will there will be so much tension created in the short length of an ollete loop as it stretches, before any real equalization occurs, that there will be little benefit to having the stretch at all.

My thinking right now is that unless the anchor is truly equalized, the force a second piece in an anchor will see will still look pretty much like it would if no stretch were to occur. Sure the force will be over a very slightly longer duration. Sure it will have very slightly lower initiation force and a slightly lower peak but right now I wonder if there rally is enough difference to worry about.

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#31413 - 07/22/07 03:24 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: MarcC]
paulraphael Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
These debates about 'o-lettes get meaningless when people assume they're a panacea for all circumstances. If you look at them as a versatile option than can help a lot of the time, things get a little more clear. They especially make sense on long routes where you plan to lead in blocks.

My partner and I have been field testing a method that we like more than anything else we've seen or tried:

http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf

We've been using it at the Gunks all season, and just spent eight days at the Cirque of the Towers in Wyoming using it on alpine rock routes. The idea is to maximize speed and versatility. At the gunks we use it at just about every belay (trees, bolts, blocks, gear). In the mountains we used maybe half the time; the rest of the time opting for even more speed by just throwing a sling onto a horn and calling it good. In none of these circumstances would we have considered the more elaborately tied contraptions that people have photographed in their living rooms.

At any rate, Jim Ewing at Sterling Ropes has done a few preliminary pull tests and gives it the thumbs up. Will Gadd likes it and plans to field test it in the Canadian Rockies as soon as his new kid lets him get out of the house. If anyone else wants to try it out, we'd love to get your feedback.


Edited by paulraphael (07/22/07 03:33 PM)

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#31421 - 07/23/07 01:38 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: paulraphael]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Nice work. I bet JL would have included your version if youd gotten it to him on time. Looks like a top candidate for best O-lette to me!

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#31430 - 07/23/07 02:57 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: mworking]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
Nice solution, and beautiful presentation!

GO

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#31432 - 07/23/07 03:13 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: GOclimb]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Looks like it addresses the concerns very well. Please post up again in a few months to let us know how it goes and any limitations you might encounter.

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#31451 - 07/23/07 08:17 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: chip]
paulraphael Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
Thanks for checking it out.

JL has seen it; he gave it a cursory 'looks good, get people to try it' response ... his eyes are probably glazed over from all the insane ideas and pics people have been sending him.

I'm hoping to get more people to try it. No doubt some of you geniuses could find some more efficient ways to use it than we already have. If you have a cordelette lying around you just have to add a $3 ring.

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#31453 - 07/23/07 09:14 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: paulraphael]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
At a cursory look, the only concern that I would have is when I want a 4th piece of pro, at which point I would have to rig it with clove hitching two pieces off of one loop and decrease the dynamic equalization or sliding X two pieces together first. For a big route where time really could be an issue, this looks good.

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