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#32533 - 08/26/07 12:18 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: paulraphael]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: paulraphael
Eddie, a couple of answers to that. the


paul,
basically when i learned leading one of the most important thing impressed on me was when you constructed and anchor you assessed it with an "if you cut one place what would happen?" question. this cord fails that! in the end as far as i am concerned this system is faulty and i would not use it and would never EVER want to be jugging on it or being belayed from it! you yourself has admitted that you have HEARD of a case of webbing breaking! should that not be good enough! if it CAN happen it will! and as you have pointed out it has! interesting!
your next sentence really strikes a cord with me. "that it's wasted attention to put too many resources into backing that up." WTF. if you can waste all that time building a 3 f#$@ing piece anchor how could it be a waste of resources to back up a cordellet? are you F%$#ing kidding me? this game is played by the BACK EVERYTHING UP" mantra....well when i played it it did!
now you may be thinking what an ass i am....well an ass i may be! BUT you should reassess exactly how you are gambling and what the price is, for "an anchor getting cut is very very low". last time i checked low odds happen everyday! ever notice that with super low odds some one always wins the lottery?
if people are going to climb on my rope then they WILL back EVERYTHING up! or i rope solo! at least then i know what kind of safety my belayer subscribes to!

double eddie eddie
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#32534 - 08/26/07 12:44 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Eddie]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I've found that it is not worth arguing about this. Everyone has their own comfort level, and for some people this involves a mantra that cannot be violated. In any case, Paul already pointed out that any equalizing anchor is easily and rapidly backed up, so the whole thing is a non-issue.

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#32538 - 08/26/07 02:33 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
I've found that it is not worth arguing about this. Everyone has their own comfort level, and for some people this involves a mantra that cannot be violated. In any case, Paul already pointed out that any equalizing anchor is easily and rapidly backed up, so the whole thing is a non-issue.


yeah yeah yeah! but why not just build that from the beginning? that is the only real statement i have about it.

as for being a mantra?!?!? i am not sure? back everything up.....
is that a mantra that can be violated? i did not realize i was so naive about anchor building! i really have no problem with simple small anchors....but lets not make building crappy anchors acceptable. built it right, backed up and make it safe. how is this a non issue? why all the extra cordallet building??

e


Edited by Eddie (08/26/07 02:40 AM)
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#32541 - 08/26/07 02:56 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Eddie]
Ale Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 10
 Originally Posted By: Eddie
if it CAN happen it will!


Keep in mind that doesn't matter how much you back everything up, accidents are still possible. And thus, according to your philosophy, they will certainly happen....

If one feels more comfortable backing up everything also the shoe laces is ok for me. But please don't pretend the others to share yours phobiae!

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#32542 - 08/26/07 02:57 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Eddie]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
The ironic thing about all this cordalette debunking is that I've mostly given up on bothering to build equalized anchors. I just plug in some pieces and clip them willy-nilly and call it good. At least I used to string them all together in some semblance of an equalized something-or-other but now I figure why bother and just clip in with my daisy (OK, it's a PAS for you daisy-haters).

If I know I'm leading the next pitch too, I'll build a power point, but most of the time my partner gets up there and I mumble, "um, I'll tie you off" or point him at the best piece.

Since learning that a cordalette only equalizes whatever-percent, I've decided 0% works OK for me.

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#32543 - 08/26/07 11:51 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Ale]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: Ale
 Originally Posted By: Eddie
if it CAN happen it will!


Keep in mind that doesn't matter how much you back everything up, accidents are still possible. And thus, according to your philosophy, they will certainly happen....


yup! now you got it!


[/quote]
If one feels more comfortable backing up everything also the shoe laces is ok for me. But please don't pretend the others to share yours phobiae!







[/quote]

yeah! okay. if i have a phobia then okay. you all seem to be missing the point! you do not need to use a crappy poor idea and badly used piece of extra gear! that is all. build a good anchor and follow the "rules" of good anchor building. it should have redundancy. you all seem to be saying that i am crazy and have phobia. i would like to see your anchors....OH! you all clip the bolts!

i have no time for this.
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#32545 - 08/26/07 03:19 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Eddie]
Ale Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 10
No no, I see your point.
It's just that sometimes there are issues that are not obvious or even counter-intuitive:
a beginner with little theoretical knowledge may feel more comfortable with a short fall close or very close to the anchor than with a longer fall at the end of the pitch!
One may feel safer doubling the cordelette or tying in knots to make it "cut-proof", even though the risk of a cordelette failure is far far smaller than the probability of having a car accident along the trip to the cliff and, at the same time, larger risk may come from the bad anchor equalization...

There isn't necessarily a correspondence between feeling safe and being safe.

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#32547 - 08/26/07 04:42 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Ale]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Whenever these equalization discussions come up, I can't help but be reminded of this picture from Yosemite Climber, captioned "Belay anchors, Sea of Dreams":

Yosemite Climber, George Meyers, 1979, pg. 67. Photo: Dave Diegleman
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#32554 - 08/26/07 10:15 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: MarcC]
Eddie Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1446
Loc: NP. NY
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
Whenever these equalization discussions come up, I can't help but be reminded of this picture from Yosemite Climber, captioned "Belay anchors, Sea of Dreams":

Yosemite Climber, George Meyers, 1979, pg. 67. Photo: Dave Diegleman


yeah! that is a classic! a friend of mine almost talked me into that climb! then i came to my senses! i would have liked to do it but i am not sure i could do all those A4s......somehow i always get the A3+ and A4 pitches! the hook or book pitch kinda said it all!

the photo reminds me of the famous RURP anchor by bridwell.
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#32571 - 08/27/07 02:36 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Eddie]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"WTF. if you can waste all that time building a 3 f#$@ing piece anchor how could it be a waste of resources to back up a cordellet? are you F%$#ing kidding me? this game is played by the BACK EVERYTHING UP" mantra....well when i played it it did!
now you may be thinking what an ass i am....well an ass i may be!"

I just hope you always wear two climbing harnesses . . . .

After all, we've all heard of one failing.

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