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#28887 - 05/04/07 07:21 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: chip]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
An addendum to the previous post on factor 2 falls onto the belay. You only get the braking force offered by your device if you lock it off when the fall happens, and however obvious this may be, there can be a serious problem with any ATC/tube-style device:

the locked position requires bring the braking hand up to the chest, not down to the hip.

Because of this, it is prudent to begin belaying the leader using the palm-up pinch-and-slide hand orientation, in which case you will be automatically locked off if the leader falls onto the belay. (Mentally rehearsing the fact that you will not drop your hand to the traditional braking position is a good idea here.) Once the leader has a good piece in, you can change to whatever hand orientation you prefer.

Although I don't personally like redirecting the leader's belay through the belay anchor, this potential braking problem is one of the arguments for doing so.

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#28899 - 05/04/07 09:10 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
the locked position requires bring the braking hand up to the chest, not down to the hip.


Call me a n00b or something... I just don't get what you're saying here...

Sounds rather... well... the opposite of what I've always done...

Hand down to "lock"
Hand up to "lower"
?
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#28905 - 05/05/07 02:28 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Dillbag]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Sounds rather... well... the opposite of what I've always done...

...which is why there is a potentially catastrophic problem.

What you normally do is predicated on the leader's rope running up after it exits the belay device. If the leader falls directly onto the belay, the leader's rope will, of course, be running down after exiting the belay device---the whole device will have pivoted to face downwards towards the fall. If you bring your brake hand down too, then the belay device becomes inoperative and you are trying to catch a factor 2 leader fall with just a rope looped through a biner on your harness for friction.

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#28907 - 05/06/07 07:49 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
Allenperry Offline
member

Registered: 02/11/03
Posts: 195
Loc: Reading, Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Sounds rather... well... the opposite of what I've always done...

...which is why there is a potentially catastrophic problem.

What you normally do is predicated on the leader's rope running up after it exits the belay device. If the leader falls directly onto the belay, the leader's rope will, of course, be running down after exiting the belay device---the whole device will have pivoted to face downwards towards the fall. If you bring your brake hand down too, then the belay device becomes inoperative and you are trying to catch a factor 2 leader fall with just a rope looped through a biner on your harness for friction.


And you also have to factor in to that scenario the fact that you, the belayer, are going to have to make that transition while being ferociuosly yanked from your stance and being spun 180 degrees, with your belly facing out and downward. Not to mention the massive weight around your waist \:o

Who says belaying isn't an art form?
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#28908 - 05/06/07 08:00 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Allenperry]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
And if you end up upside down, then you're back to needing to pull up to apply the brake. It's a dynamic situation.

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#28909 - 05/06/07 10:34 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: dalguard]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
So we all know these things happen. Who here has actually caught a F2 fall? or taken one? D-elvis? i know you went whipping past your belayer, was that a full on F2?
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#28910 - 05/06/07 11:30 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: empicard]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I've caught one real factor 2 fall and around 10 - 20 practice falls, with a weight, of about factor 1.5. The practice falls had the rope going through a carabiner but no other sources of friction in the system. All of these were years ago and with a hip belay.


Edited by rg@ofmc (05/06/07 11:32 PM)

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#28911 - 05/06/07 11:46 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Allenperry]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
And you also have to factor in to that scenario the fact that you, the belayer, are going to have to make that transition while being ferociuosly yanked from your stance and being spun 180 degrees, with your belly facing out and downward. Not to mention the massive weight around your waist.

Three comments:

1. The point of my earlier remark is precisely that the belayer does not have to make a transition. By beginning with the palm up pinch and slide tactic, the braking hand is in the right position if you just leave it in place. (The belayer will have to face the transition issues if the leader's pro pulls, however.)

2. Until the leader places good pro, the belayer ought to postion themselves either sideways to the rock or facing out to that the won't be spun 180 degrees. (Even worse, if facing in, would be getting the leader's rope over your shoulder.)

3. The belay device ought to be clipped through the harness belay loop and the knot(s) anchoring the climbing rope(s) to the belayer's harness, so that the force of a factor 2 fall is quickly transferred to the anchor and is never really applied to the belayer's waist. This backs up the belay loop for those who may be paranoid about such things, but primarily it prevents the harness tie-in points from being subjected to extreme opposite forces.

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#28926 - 05/07/07 02:27 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
I've caught one real factor 2 fall and around 10 - 20 practice falls, with a weight, of about factor 1.5. The practice falls had the rope going through a carabiner but no other sources of friction in the system. All of these were years ago and with a hip belay.
If you're going to catch FF2 falls with a hip belay, you need more than a pair of gloves. Like leather underwear. That must have hurt.

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#28928 - 05/07/07 02:43 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
What you normally do is predicated on the leader's rope running up after it exits the belay device. If the leader falls directly onto the belay, the leader's rope will, of course, be running down after exiting the belay device---the whole device will have pivoted to face downwards towards the fall. If you bring your brake hand down too, then the belay device becomes inoperative and you are trying to catch a factor 2 leader fall with just a rope looped through a biner on your harness for friction.


Ok... I get what you were saying now. Thanks for the explanation.
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