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#28948 - 05/08/07 01:37 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: dalguard]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
If you're going to catch FF2 falls with a hip belay, you need more than a pair of gloves. Like leather underwear. That must have hurt.

Ooooh, leather underwear, my favorite. I was just waiting for someone to ask...but of course when ya got brass balls, leather undies are a conceit.

Moving on.

The real-life outdoor F2 catch really wasn't that bad. Little if any rope slipped, not enough to notice. Didn't even crease the leather intimate apparel. I was driven from a standing position down to my knees. The leader fell past a narrow ledge and the rope went over the edge of the ledge, and this may have provided some extra friction. The rope was 11mm, easier to grip hard and providing more friction. On top of that, I suspect a properly set-up hip belay might offer more friction than some modern belay devices.

The practice catches with the weight were another matter. We expected the worst, prepared for it, and weren't disappointed. We wore gloves and---forget the leather accessories---padded our hips with an empty canvas pack tied around our waists. The falls simulated leader falls through a single overhead piece, and we were flung violently up and then jerked back hard by the anchor.

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#28957 - 05/08/07 03:27 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
BillH Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 59
Loc: Maryland
RG's mention of the belay tester brings back memories of how, as I high school kid, I learned to belay in my parent's yard: hauling 150+ pounds of iron weights up into the huge Oak tree in, getting set up in a hip belay with tie in and some extra padding, and then waiting for my [sister/father/climbing buddy] to drop the weights. I wold get yanked around pretty good, but never droped my iron climber. It gave us not only practice letting a little rope slip (a la Arnold and Wexler, Belaying the Leader) but also a good sense of the forces with which we could be confronted on the rock in a bad fall. The experience made me a true believer in belay gloves, but more importantly very aware of the need to think out the possible magnitudes and directions of the forces that may act on the belayer on the rock. When our sport gave up the rule that "The leader must not fall," it was replaced by "The belayer must not fall." I would add to that, "and not get slammed against the rock and knocked senseless." Bill
_________________________
Bill Hutchins
Hutbill@comcast.net
http://www.reliclife.blogspot.com

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#28991 - 05/09/07 01:13 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
Allenperry Offline
member

Registered: 02/11/03
Posts: 195
Loc: Reading, Pennsylvania
On the subject of high factor falls: Would it be advisable to keep the anchor and tie-in point much higher, perhaps several feet above your head if possible? And making sure the belayer is tied in with the rope to the anchor?

Would this not allow the leader to increase the possibility of getting a piece in at or near anchor height, and decrease the difference between fall height and rope length?

In another scenario: What difference would it make if the first piece was the anchor, but was clipped in with a Yates Screamer?
_________________________
Perry

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#31286 - 07/18/07 02:51 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Allenperry]
rickcee Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 248
Loc: central Jersey
Hi - back to cordalettes . . . the conclusion is, option ' A' is shaky , option ' B' no better ?? When I was climbing I used a cord in a tied off loop around 3 anchors > good pic. in Mellors ' rock climbing' book , pg 115 . still consicdered good to go ?

PS - actually I was just at EMS last sat. noticed a spool of 5 mm spectra - it's still listed in my campmor catalog as well ( maxim tech - 6 meters, $22.) Was slightly considering getting, thou I was aware of the noted testing, mention that 7 mm nylon's stretch is a good thing.

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#31299 - 07/18/07 02:16 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rickcee]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
More like option A is fine and so is option B. Some people enjoy analyzing the nuances. The rest of us just keep climbing like we always have. I don't understand your description (tied off loop around 3 anchors) but if it was in a book by Mellor I'm sure it's fine too.

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#31311 - 07/18/07 04:53 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rickcee]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
I still use the tech cord and have for years. I couldn't imagine that the tiny bit of stretch in a 7mm cord compared against no stretch in the tech cords would do you any good in the real world. Sure, in the lab it might show a little difference but if that tiny bit is the difference between your anchor blowing or not, the anchor placements were bunk in the first place.

Climer

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#31330 - 07/18/07 08:35 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Climer]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
This is probably going to sound irrelevant and/or overly picayune to many people, but...here's the reason to use a stretchy cordalette:

It seems that the only way to have a shot at some kind of anchor equalization with a cordalette is to have all arms of the cordalette approximately the same length. A long arm develops lower loads and destroys equalization, no matter how carefully the cordalette is tied. Long arms are unavoidable when three pieces are in the same vertical crack, but of course many other trad anchor configurations can have a piece significantly further from the belay than the others. A very simple way of minimizing the "unequalizing" effect of a long arm is to interpose a low-stretch sling on the distant piece so that the cordalette arms become more or less equal, but this only works if the elasticity of the cordalette is considerably greater than that of the sling.

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#31337 - 07/18/07 11:09 PM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: rg@ofmc]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
Rg i am not arguing the validity of your point but to extend my thoughts on this

Extending a placement(say with a sling) to a cordalette is common practice. Not for equalization but convenience. Most of my cordalettes are nowhere near long enough to reach out to a really far piece anyways. I use the tech cords also for convenience. Less bulk. Some would argue that it is stronger but that is just another example of hairsplitting so common to technical discussions of climbing gear and rigging.

I read the discussion on the other site for a few pages then my eyes got blurry and most if not all of the post here and I still come to the same conclusion. Rigging a anchor with a thisolette instead of a thatolette really means squat in reality. Oh I would not argue that in a lab one may look superior to the other but the fact is, properly rigged, anyolette is bomber.

The “lab” is a controlled environment. It needs to be for accuracy. As far as lab testing of a thisolette goes you are still only looking at 1 single piece of the protection chain. Anyone can see that there is no real way to test all the different forces and scenarios of a climbing fall in the field. Even if you could, you would have to test so many different conceivable scenarios to get concrete data that it would be next to impossible. It does come to the point in time where enough is enough. Don’t get me wrong, testing and critique are an essential part of knowledge and in the vertical world they are undeniably relevant, just not to the point of the ridiculousness or the splitting and resplitting of a hair. It can bring the “lab” to the point of being a liability instead of an asset.

True equalization without extension with the current methods are impossible. But is true equalization really necessary? Does each leg of a whateverolette really need to share the load completely equally to be bomber? Heck no...If the placement of the piece connected to each leg of the cordalette can withstand the max force that it should/could receive...you are golden. Using any configuration of rigging to make more secure already sketchy placements is a crap shoot any day of the week. In theory it can be done but why bother? In theory, any and every anchor can blow given the right criteria. With all the ways to avoid that situation is a be all end all perfect way to build an anchor with absolutely no chance in hell of ever failing really necessary?

At some point in time we as climbers need to say enough.... it is good already and cast off on the next pitch. Does it really matter in the end what your olette is made of? Tech, 7mm cord, or webbing?

Man that was a ridiculously long reply
Climer

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#31339 - 07/19/07 12:49 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: Climer]
fallenglass Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 276
Loc: cornwall
it may matter if your anchor options are very poor and you need equalization.

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#31340 - 07/19/07 01:06 AM Re: cordelette-attention RG [Re: fallenglass]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
 Quote:
Rigging a anchor with a thisolette instead of a thatolette really means squat in reality. Oh I would not argue that in a lab one may look superior to the other but the fact is, properly rigged, anyolette is bomber.

This should be the definitive answer to any further iterations of this question.

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