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#28891 - 05/04/07 07:45 PM More Alien issues?
nerdom Offline
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Registered: 09/07/01
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Loc: Davis Sq., MA
Came across a couple threads on RC.com and Supertopo discussing reputed recent, post-recall Alien failures. WTF? See Micah Dash's post from May 1:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=365159&tn=20

Mine are all pre-dimple era units, and I've fallen on several of them, but it still makes one wonder.
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#28929 - 05/07/07 04:04 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: nerdom]
Julie Offline
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I'm well past wondering at this point.

I'm just looking forward to new ones from whomever takes over the business. My newest one is '03, but I was thinking about getting a grey or so. I'll wait.

CCH's response (and didn't they claim to have tension-tested all post-recall units?) is just unimagineable ... especially in light of those pictures!

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#28930 - 05/07/07 04:17 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Julie]
Dillbag Offline
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Registered: 05/02/06
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There is considerable conjecture currently ensuing over the photos of the Alien in question. Was it brazed properly, did the cable break, was it not inserted fully, was it tensile tested (no image of the stamp)... And so on. Note the date 03/07 of manufacture.

Here is CCH's current response:
Testing

Here are the pictures of the failed Alien:





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#28932 - 05/07/07 05:50 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
mworking Offline
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Posts: 764
The picture might be deceiving, but it sure looks like the cable was barely inserted at all! I lost all confidence in CCH after the first round of defects when Dave clearly demonstrated in just a few posts that he didn’t have a clue about ISO, good manufacturing practice, or the concern or desire to learn. I’ll use my (few) old Aliens, they were made years ago, probably by Dave himself, and I assume he knew how to assemble them.

Hmm, perhaps I shouldn’t, he didn’t know anymore about QC then than he does now!

Just bought a set off C-3s. Had already tried Zeros and wasn’t all that impressed. I might go back go back to Aliens if someone else produces them, but I don’t think I’d ever buy them while produced by the current group.

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#28933 - 05/07/07 06:16 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
nerdom Offline
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I looked at all mine this weekend. All except my Gray are circa 2001. The Gray is stamped "606." I'm taking it off my rack. I've placed it a bunch of times, but have never fallen on it. And I don't want to start doing so now. I've fallen on my old Blue and Green Aliens, and they held nicely, so I will continue to employ the older ones. But I'm now solidly in favor of making the switch to the C-4s. Which really bums me out, because I've been a huge fan of Aliens for a while now. But how can you have any faith in something that is failing at the rate that Aliens are? When was the last time you heard of a Camalot or TCU failure? Me personally, never.
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#28935 - 05/07/07 06:34 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
dalguard Offline
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Does it seem to you as though that disc may have been caught such that it became a chock rather than allowing the force to pass through to the lobes?

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#28938 - 05/07/07 07:37 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
Dillbag Offline
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What disc?

Do you mean the trigger handle? At the bottom of the black part?

The black part is just a fabric tube through which the cable is passed... And is only part of the trigger assembly.
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#28940 - 05/07/07 07:49 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
mworking Offline
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Posts: 764
Dawn,

I’m not sure what you mean by the disk? Are you referring to the trigger bar or retractor cable platform?

Either way, or even no matter what the cable and stem should not separate below the units strength rating, if it did I would not expect the pictures to look like these. I would expect to see something broken, really broken. I would not expect to see something that looks like there never was any contact area to solder or braze.

 Quote:
I’ll use my (few) old Aliens, they were made years ago, probably by Dave himself, and I assume he knew how to assemble them.

Hmm, perhaps I shouldn’t, he didn’t know anymore about QC then than he does now!



Hmm, hmm, and I’ve never tested/fallen on mine.
Guess that’s why I didn’t think to long when I bought the whole set of C-3s.

Ok Dawn and others, how many do you have!
Me? I think only three.


Edited by mworking (05/07/07 07:54 PM)

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#28958 - 05/08/07 03:29 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
dalguard Offline
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I want to use my Aliens. I don't like C3s. I don't like Metolius TCUs. I like Aliens. My regular Aliens are all pre-recall but my offsets aren't. They were "inspected" by R&S and two had dimples and went back. The others haven't been tested. Or fallen on, to the best of my recollection. I still want to use them. I love them.

I was referring to the trigger bar. I was wondering what would happen if the trigger bar got stuck like a nut, if that would transfer the force to the piece in a weird way. But everyone seems convinced there's visible evidence of it not having been manufactured right in the first place so I guess I'll believe them. I have no knowledge on that subject.

Still want to use my Aliens and I'm going to but I'm getting less happy about it.

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#28960 - 05/08/07 03:59 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
learningtolead Offline
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Dalguard, I'm with you. I love my aliens and can't imagine giving them up. I don't think any other small cam can compare but this quality control problem sucks!!!

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#28961 - 05/08/07 04:06 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: learningtolead]
empicard Offline
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love aliens.
love em.
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#28964 - 05/08/07 04:50 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
Smike Offline
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Unless you can have someone qualified physically inspect said unit, pictures are just speculation. I can take anyone of those photos and make it look however you want. The only part that I don’t like is the way CCH handles this stuff, but so far all I see are couple of low resolution pics of said cam.

How do you know all the photos are components of the same cam? No photo shows all pieces in the same frame.

Also why is there completely different lighting and backgrounds in the photos of individual parts? (Excluding the one of the cam in the crack)

Why is there no photo of the stamps on the other side the trigger pull?

The photos raise just as many questions as they try to answer.

All of the aliens on my rack have been tested (unwillingly most of the time) So until I see anything more official I’m done thinking about it

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#28965 - 05/08/07 05:21 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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Sure, you could fake it, take pictures and fool the masses. It'd be easy to do. But of course you're opening yourself up to getting sued by CCH, maybe by the goverment if the CPSC steps in and finds it a fraud.

The pictures were posted because the masses have asked for them. While not proof, it does show it's more than just spray. Either it's real or an elaborate hoax.

The pictures show only what people have asked to see. There may be more that haven't been linked or uploaded. Obviously the pictures are taken at different times, some on the rock, after they got home, some maybe even later as people asked to see different aspects. Lighting is arbitrary because the guy's not a professional photographer, didn't take all the pictures at the same time or from the same angle.

What's on the other side of the trigger worth taking a picture of?

The pictures answer the questions posed in the thread:
1- it's not just spray, there's a broken cam
2- it's not a braze failure that prompted the recall
3- the lot number is post-recall
4- the lobes are relatively intact, indicating a low force fall
5- there are no kinks in the cable which could indicate loading over an edge
6- the cam appears well placed

You don't need to think about it if all your aliens have been fallen on, if all your partners' aliens have all been fallen on, if you don't plan on replacing any aliens in the future. But there are a lot of people who are concerned, because we've bought new aliens or know people who have or climb with people who might have.
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#28966 - 05/08/07 05:24 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Dillbag Offline
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 Quote:
What's on the other side of the trigger worth taking a picture of?


Nothing actually... What Smike meant was the swage. It has a stamp denoting whether it was tensile tested or not.
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#28968 - 05/08/07 06:27 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Smike Offline
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QTM, unless you've read something I have not (which could be the case) #2 is speculation if just looking at the photos (which is the focus point of this failure, how did the stem break)

Yes DB, that’s what I meant as that would / could have major impacts in CCH testing ability if the cam broke post tensile testing manufacture (Adding merit to concerns on recently purchased units)

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#28969 - 05/08/07 06:40 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
Julie Offline
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7. Because the unit is so very new and clearly not abused, these pictures put CCH's response to the failure in a very clear and harsh light.

8. CCH has NOT tensile tested all of its post-recall units, as claimed.

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#28970 - 05/08/07 07:10 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
nerdom Offline
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 Originally Posted By: dalguard
Still want to use my Aliens and I'm going to but I'm getting less happy about it.


Seems to me that's like having unprotected sex with random strangers. It's usually called "denial." I love my Aliens as much as the next guy/gal, but these issues are too prevalent to ignore. My 2006 Alien is going back to CCH for pull-testing before I think about even placing body weight on it.
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#28972 - 05/08/07 07:44 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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It's possible it's related. But the braze failure that prompted the recall ended with the entire cable and braze pulling clean out of the stem, leaving a clean hole. This shows the brazing material seemingly intact in the stem.

I agree that you can't tell what happened. But it looks like the cable was never fully inserted into the stem and simply separated under load; that calls into question the assembly QA and the pull testing. If the cable actually snapped, then why did it snap?

The tensile testing is a big question as well. CCH claims all cams made in 2006+ have been pull tested, and many have sent their cams in to be tested. Was this cam actually tested? Can we rely on the static pull tests to adequately simulate conditions in a real world fall? Is everything really ok, but for some reason this fall generated greater than expected forces that somehow didn't disfigure the lobes?

Hard questions to answer even if you have the cam; pictures alone aren't going to answer them.
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#28973 - 05/08/07 08:14 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
mworking Offline
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Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Quote:
But it looks like the cable was never fully inserted into the stem and simply separated under load...The tensile testing is a big question as well. CCH claims all cams made in 2006+ have been pull tested, and many have sent their cams in to be tested. Was this cam actually tested?...Hard questions to answer even if you have the cam.


Unless the picture are an elaborate hoax, or are incredibly deceiving I agree with the first line above. Clearly noting in the picture is broken but the solder or braze.

I know one thing for sure. I wouldn't send my Aliens to CCH to have them tested. It seems very clear that that they cannot keep track of what the are doing. We're probably better off doing a crude test ourselves. At leat that way you know it got done and how.

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#28974 - 05/08/07 08:54 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: nerdom]
dalguard Offline
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 Originally Posted By: nerdom
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
Still want to use my Aliens and I'm going to but I'm getting less happy about it.

Seems to me that's like having unprotected sex with random strangers.

People survive doing that too. I still think the overall risk isn't that high, but I admit it's getting higher.

 Originally Posted By: nerdom
My 2006 Alien is going back to CCH for pull-testing before I think about even placing body weight on it.

Why would you trust them?

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#28975 - 05/08/07 09:02 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: nerdom]
strat Offline
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So, now, anyone that has aliens, has to share with their partner the detailed history of their aliens. "I bought mine in 1999, and the last time they were tested they were negative and that was six months ago, so, its safe"

Horse shit.

Camalots, 4CUs, 3CUs, Zeros, and Friends.

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#28976 - 05/08/07 09:12 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
MarcC Offline
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 Originally Posted By: strat
Camalots, 4CUs, 3CUs, Zeros, and Friends.

I agree with strat. It really doesn't matter when you bought your Aliens, if they've been fallen on, if they've been pull-tested by CCH, of if you trust them. CCH has shown repeatedly in the past two years that they have little or no concept of things like QA/QC, six-sigma, ISO9000, or public relations. There have simply been too many questions at this point. Even if you bought yours many years ago, remember that CCH knew even less about QA/QC practices then.

The best thing that can happen now is that a company who knows what they're doing buys the design and rights from CCH.
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#28979 - 05/08/07 09:34 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
well i can tell easily by looking at the photos that unit seemed to be overheated at the braze joint where the cable was broken.

unlike the aliens (rockwell hardness dimples) which were braze failures due to cold braze joint from quenching. those had a nice clean smooth braze surface around the cable. this new failure has rough edges around the cable which went into the cable housing. the cable is in a cone shape which would be typical heat pattern using an induction unit.
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#28985 - 05/08/07 11:38 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: talus]
talus Offline
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Posts: 1259
2nd look at the photos looks more like a shallow cable placement in the housing
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#28992 - 05/09/07 02:42 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MarcC
It really doesn't matter when you bought your Aliens, if they've been fallen on, if they've been pull-tested by CCH, of if you trust them. CCH has shown repeatedly in the past two years that they have little or no concept of things like QA/QC, six-sigma, ISO9000, or public relations. There have simply been too many questions at this point. Even if you bought yours many years ago, remember that CCH knew even less about QA/QC practices then.


Actually, I was looking at the claim again;
Since January 2006 every main cable is tensile tested using an Omega electronic strain gauge to measure the load. The .33 through 1" main cables are tested to 1750 lbs and the 1.25 through 2.5 are tested to 2400 lbs. After testing they are stamped (Tested) on the cable eye to indicate the test was made. Ultimate strength of a 3/4 Alien is over 2700 lbs.

It doesn't say they test the actual cam, just the main cable. The pictures on the site show them pull testing strands of cable only, no cams. So what does the "tensile tested" stamp really indicate?

My concern now is that while I've fallen on many of my aliens, I've never taken the big one on them. Maybe I've been squeaking by... just under the threshold. The green, my favorite, is rated 9KN. How much have I really loaded it? Will it really hold 9KN, or fall apart at 5KN?
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#28993 - 05/09/07 02:47 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
strat Offline
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 Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
It really doesn't matter when you bought your Aliens, if they've been fallen on, if they've been pull-tested by CCH, of if you trust them. CCH has shown repeatedly in the past two years that they have little or no concept of things like QA/QC, six-sigma, ISO9000, or public relations. There have simply been too many questions at this point. Even if you bought yours many years ago, remember that CCH knew even less about QA/QC practices then.


Actually, I was looking at the claim again;
Since January 2006 every main cable is tensile tested using an Omega electronic strain gauge to measure the load. The .33 through 1" main cables are tested to 1750 lbs and the 1.25 through 2.5 are tested to 2400 lbs. After testing they are stamped (Tested) on the cable eye to indicate the test was made. Ultimate strength of a 3/4 Alien is over 2700 lbs.

It doesn't say they test the actual cam, just the main cable. The pictures on the site show them pull testing strands of cable only, no cams. So what does the "tensile tested" stamp really indicate?

My concern now is that while I've fallen on many of my aliens, I've never taken the big one on them. Maybe I've been squeaking by... just under the threshold. The green, my favorite, is rated 9KN. How much have I really loaded it? Will it really hold 9KN, or fall apart at 5KN?


EXACTLY! That's why a post like Smike's- who claims that his has been tested- is so troubling. Tested under what conditions? 140 pound climber oozing onto a cam with a three foot slide/fall on 8mm doubles or 240 pound climber taking a 10 foot fall on an 11mm rope?

Alien lovers should just pray that Petzl licenses the Alien patents and puts them into production with real manufacturing standards. The only thing that CCH is doing by continuing to f this up is running down the value of their brand and probably the $ they can get for licensing the patents. Do they have patents?

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#28995 - 05/09/07 03:19 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
Smike Offline
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 Quote:
One thing is clear CCH is a Fu*# up as company in the way it has dealt with each situation (scary that is even more then one)


Sam …ya of course Its not based on anything scientific.(and thank god its not based on my spelling) My post is that ‘my’ assumption on ‘my’ aliens is that I will continue to use them based on what I’ve seen them go through (which includes several whippers at 15’+ with someone a lot ‘larger’ then me). If someone doesn’t want to use them, no prob.

One thing is clear CCH is a Fu*# up as company in the way it has dealt with each situation (scary that its even more then one) I agreed 30000% that someone with the means to produce a trusted product (Petzl, BD, etc..) needs to come out with an equivalent or by the rights to the design and make it right)

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#28996 - 05/09/07 04:00 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
ShakesALot Offline
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Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 255
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 Originally Posted By: strat


Alien lovers should just pray that Petzl licenses the Alien patents and puts them into production with real manufacturing standards. The only thing that CCH is doing by continuing to f this up is running down the value of their brand and probably the $ they can get for licensing the patents. Do they have patents?


Metolius, this Autumn.

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#29002 - 05/09/07 05:16 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
Timbo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MarcC
I agree with strat. It really doesn't matter when you bought your Aliens...,

Well, it might. If your Aliens were purchased when it was basically a one-man shop and that man knew how to braze and assemble a quality product.

 Originally Posted By: MarcC
The best thing that can happen now is that a company who knows what they're doing buys the design and rights from CCH.

Agreed. The issue of CCH being able to keep up with orders has been around long before we started seeing quality control problems. The former problem was almost sure to lead to the latter as long as CCH internal policies remained the same even though the company grew.

TS
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#29009 - 05/09/07 05:58 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
RangerRob Offline
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The alien in that picture is brand new! For christ's sakes, it still has ridges on the lobes! You can't really trust your Aliens until you have fallen on them enough times to have smooth lobes. Does anyone else's Aliens look that clean and nice?? Look slike they took it off the rack, snapped the cable off it, and put a couple of burrs on the cams.

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#29013 - 05/09/07 10:20 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: RangerRob]
chip Offline
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So I waited a while and finally bit on a new green in April, the only size I still feel is superior to whatever else brand I can get. Used outside maybe 7 days and now I will quietly put it away again. Back to my C3s and the .3 C4. I can not justify taking a stupid risk on a questionable product when the family still expects food, heat and clothes. Can you hear the sadness in my post?

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#29036 - 05/10/07 07:58 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: chip]
irisharehere Offline
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I was going to grab a few more Aliens this weekend,but having seen this..........no way I'd trust them!!! Small C4's, C3's and some Zeros will do nicely I think......

Then I just have to get out and climb!
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#29037 - 05/10/07 08:07 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: irisharehere]
Smike Offline
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 Originally Posted By: irisharehere
I was going to grab a few more Aliens this weekend,but having seen this..........no way I'd trust them!!! Small C4's, C3's and some Zeros will do nicely I think......

Then I just have to get out and climb!


Well at least you should be able to buy the cams.... \:\/

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#29038 - 05/10/07 08:32 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
Dillbag Offline
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Lost arrows and baby angles work pretty damn well too!

They just take a bit longer to place is all ;\)
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#29039 - 05/10/07 08:33 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: irisharehere]
learningtolead Offline
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Irish, how often have you actually been out climbing lately?

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#29040 - 05/10/07 08:47 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: irisharehere]
mworking Offline
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Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Perhaps it is good that this has been brought up again so that those who missed this last round get a chance to learn about it, and for those who were not concerned before to reconsider.

If I sounded adamant it is because I am. I think I made my decision at a year ago, so this recent event is just evidence that it was a good decision. I’m not condemning old Aliens. I realize that CCHs knowledge of quality control was and is nil. But the quality of their old product speaks for itself, and so far I know of no reported incidences like those we see today.

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#29041 - 05/10/07 09:09 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
quanto_the_mad Offline
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 Quote:
Perhaps it is good that this has been brought up again so that those who missed this last round get a chance to learn about it, and for those who were not concerned before to reconsider.


Check out the ST thread; it now has pictures of the second alien failure. The pictures show what appears to be the same failure that initiated the recall, notice how the entire braze pulled from the head of the cam.

There's no mention if the cam was dimpled. If it was, then it's possible that the climber, reportedly a European, didn't know about the recall.
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#29044 - 05/10/07 11:54 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
talus Offline
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#29054 - 05/11/07 11:20 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: talus]
RangerRob Offline
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Jut don't fall on them...you'll be all set

RR

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#29077 - 05/12/07 12:52 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: RangerRob]
EastVillage Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 26
Loc: NYC
I have 2 aliens purchased in 2006, a black and a green. The rest of my cams are BD.
I was just in Rock and Snow and heard about the static pull test. What to do?
Maybe I'll use them, but only when placed closely w/other gear.
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#29080 - 05/13/07 04:25 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: EastVillage]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
Have any of the aliens marked "Tested" failed?

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#29081 - 05/13/07 12:48 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: paulraphael]
chip Offline
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I just checked a new one but can't find any Tested Stamp, made in March 07. I thought the stamp would be on the brass. Any thoughts?

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#29085 - 05/13/07 11:55 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: chip]
Mike Rawdon Offline

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Brass?? Where's there brass on an Alien?

I've seen "tested" on the flat side of the female cable/head braze fitting.

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#29086 - 05/14/07 12:13 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
my two new ones are marked "tested" on the head braze fitting, and "tensile tested" on the cable swage (copper I think ... probably what you refered to as the brass part).

my old ones aren't marked anywhere. i'm considering sending them in for testing, but only if the test procedure isn't some kind of ruse.

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#29088 - 05/14/07 04:50 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: paulraphael]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: paulraphael
my old ones aren't marked anywhere. i'm considering sending them in for testing, but only if the test procedure isn't some kind of ruse.

So you have a suspect piece of gear that you no longer trust and you're considering having it tested by the manufacturer who has shown little understanding of QA/QC and GMP, and you question the validity of the test. Um, why bother? Just replace them already. No matter what the results of the testing, you're never going to fully trust them again. Each time you place one, there will be this nagging doubt and you'll probably back it up. If you're doing that, why bother carrying the aliens in the first place?
_________________________
- Marc

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#29093 - 05/14/07 01:02 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
why bother carrying the aliens in the first place?


That's a good point! Instead you should sell them to me!

$12 for any and all Aliens!

PM me with size and condition...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29094 - 05/14/07 01:28 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: paulraphael
my old ones aren't marked anywhere. i'm considering sending them in for testing, but only if the test procedure isn't some kind of ruse.

So you have a suspect piece of gear that you no longer trust and you're considering having it tested by the manufacturer who has shown little understanding of QA/QC and GMP, and you question the validity of the test. Um, why bother? Just replace them already. No matter what the results of the testing, you're never going to fully trust them again. Each time you place one, there will be this nagging doubt and you'll probably back it up. If you're doing that, why bother carrying the aliens in the first place?


And, not only do you put yourself in danger, but you endanger your partner by using the pieces of shit as well. I loved my tooth number 30, but, when the fucker started hurting, I had no hesitation to go have the pulp taken out of that fucker and a crown put on it.

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#29095 - 05/14/07 02:01 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
They were up to $17 on Supertopo last I checked.

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#29096 - 05/14/07 02:23 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
farmax Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 19
Loc: NYC
How about you buy my Aliens for $35 each.....?
For 12$ each I will keep them and use them as reminder of bad manufacturing process...
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
why bother carrying the aliens in the first place?


That's a good point! Instead you should sell them to me!

$12 for any and all Aliens!

PM me with size and condition...

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#29097 - 05/14/07 02:45 PM Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: farmax]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
They were up to $17 on Supertopo last I checked.


Maybe... But that's Supertaco... and way out there on the Left coast.

I'll pick them up from you up at the Gunks... And give you CA$H! No paypal, shipping or other annoying garbage...

Offer still stands: $12 for any and all aliens!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29104 - 05/14/07 04:17 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
outbidding dill w/ $15. i'll rebraze those units myself
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John Okner Photography

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#29119 - 05/14/07 07:55 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: talus]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
So either everyone decided to sell their manky Aliens to talus... Or...

Everyone is full of shite and is going to keep climbing on them while at the same time bitching and bashing CCH...

I might be up for topping the offer from Talus... Send me a PM if interested
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29120 - 05/14/07 07:57 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
My blue alien is going to take a prime location holding up the bottle opener in the bar at RBL starting this saturday!

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#29122 - 05/14/07 08:06 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: strat]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Don't worry I wasn't going to buy your blue Alien... It smells funny...
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29126 - 05/14/07 08:56 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I'll take you up on it. I will let you know when I'm up again.

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#29127 - 05/14/07 08:59 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: chip]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
Dill, what use could you and the wife-to-be have for MORE aliens?
i've never seen more aliens than on your racks.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29128 - 05/14/07 09:02 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: chip]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
PM Sent
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#29135 - 05/15/07 01:24 AM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
So either everyone decided to sell their manky Aliens to talus... Or...

Everyone is full of shite and is going to keep climbing on them while at the same time bitching and bashing CCH...

I might be up for topping the offer from Talus... Send me a PM if interested


Why would we sell them? Ethically, if we feel they're unsafe, we have a duty to keep them off the market.

Actually I've pull tested mine to ~3KN. Trying to decide if I should pull to 80% failure, but it's much more dangerous.
_________________________


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#29139 - 05/15/07 03:16 AM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: quanto_the_mad]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: quanto_the_mad
Actually I've pull tested mine to ~3KN. Trying to decide if I should pull to 80% failure, but it's much more dangerous.

Yep. I'd sure want to be anchored to a bunch of 3kN pieces. I gues with some kind of corda-equa-nerd-o-lette of some kind with the morbid fascination of the re-re-re-direct, it'd all be just dandy.
_________________________
- Marc

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#29144 - 05/15/07 12:08 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: MarcC]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
QtM-
how did you test yours?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29159 - 05/15/07 02:41 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: empicard]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Still waiting for all those PMs to come in...
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#29163 - 05/15/07 02:47 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
As if the lack of PM's or people willing to sell you their cams proves anything?

CCH is indefensible. Accept it.

Love and attachment to rock climbing protection that is known to be of suspect quality standards is not only irrational but stupid.

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#29164 - 05/15/07 02:50 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: empicard]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Car - alien with 7mm cord looped around stem - 3mm or 4mm cord - sling - another car. The 7mm cord is there so I'm not pulling directly on the lobes.

The loop of 3mm cord should break around 3KN. 4mm around 4KN. I wanted to test with double loops of 3MM which should be 6KN or so, but with the 4KN things started flying around dangerously so I stopped; I figured 3KN was good enough at the time.

I wasn't sure about the breaking strengths of the cord either. While 4MM minimal break strength might be 4KN, I didn't want to find out that the real strength was much higher and risk damaging the alien.

Of course, I'm not an engineer; I think this rig adequately tests to the limit of the fuse, but I could be wrong.

Edited to correct a few things.


Edited by quanto_the_mad (05/15/07 03:52 PM)
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#29165 - 05/15/07 02:51 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: quanto_the_mad]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
QtM, youre a freak.

but i like your design.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29169 - 05/15/07 03:16 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: empicard]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Here's the rig, with a safety cord drawn in; the safety cord keeps the alien from flying around when the fuse breaks.

If you use a car, be careful of chemicals on the ground that might harm the sling material. It might be safer to use a tree and a couple of guys to pull instead of the car.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9360/alienpullriglo2.jpg
_________________________


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#29170 - 05/15/07 03:31 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
irrational but stupid


meh... so is climbing... whoopty-do...

And it does prove that people will just hold on to "stuff" for no good reason...
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29171 - 05/15/07 03:32 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
QTM... That was essentially the test rig that had envisioned...

Don't forget to take into account the %Loss in Strenth due to the knots on the cord...
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29178 - 05/15/07 03:51 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Doh! That's right. I was using LOOPS of 3mm to get the 3KN, not a single strand thanks to weakness of the knot.
_________________________


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#29179 - 05/15/07 03:56 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
irrational but stupid


meh... so is climbing... whoopty-do...

And it does prove that people will just hold on to "stuff" for no good reason...


No, it doesn't prove that either.

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#29180 - 05/15/07 03:58 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: strat]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
No, it doesn't prove that either.



Does too!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29182 - 05/15/07 04:29 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
No, it doesn't prove that either.



Does too!


Your mom goes to college.

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#29185 - 05/15/07 05:13 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: strat]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
DAMN...

You win this round!
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29196 - 05/15/07 07:14 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
This just in...

Russ Walling just broke a Blue '05 at 900 lbs. See

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=379659

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#29201 - 05/15/07 07:39 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: rg@ofmc]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
I might have to back up my piece of shit blue alien with a baby angle, equalizing them both together with a sliding X and maybe they will be able to hold the weight of the bottle opener on the side of the bar!

Maybe Dillhole's newly purchased alien collection could make nice christmas ornaments or a sculpture.

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#29203 - 05/15/07 07:49 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Hey D-bag,
I'll give you $.50 on the dollar on all the Aliens you hafta buy, I mean look at it this way, you only lose about 1/2.

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#29204 - 05/15/07 08:00 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
great. they cant even check their spelling.
tinsil testing?
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/recall/nw_report.html
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29205 - 05/15/07 08:28 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: empicard]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Offer is still standing.

$12 for any and all Aliens...

PM Dillbag
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29206 - 05/15/07 08:43 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: rg@ofmc]
socialist1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 145
Loc: New Brunswick, NJ
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
This just in...

Russ Walling just broke a Blue '05 at 900 lbs. See

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=379659


This was probably mine... Just sent him 11 aliens to test last week. Glad I didnt find out the hard way.

Ross

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#29207 - 05/15/07 08:47 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: socialist1]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Ross...

Did you bounce test those?
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29209 - 05/15/07 09:01 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
socialist1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 145
Loc: New Brunswick, NJ
I didnt systematically bounce test them all, though I aided with them and climbed with them so they at least all felt body weight. I have a feeling the blues only felt a light bounce. Regardless it failed at 900lbf which is about 4kN, which is a REALLY hard bounce. I definitely hadnt put that on the blues, maybe some of the others.

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#29211 - 05/15/07 09:17 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Spiderman Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 178
Loc: Long Island N.Y.
I have a 1500lb coffin hoist(chain fall). How many kN can that generate?(1.5 kN?)

This aliens thing sucks. They comprise 2/3 of my cams.

I think I can borrow a Super Tugger. It has a gauge on it to see how many thousands of lbs you are generating (I maxed it out at 7000lbs on a wire pull once ,very scary).
_________________________
I can't climb enough!
But I am climbing more!!

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#29219 - 05/16/07 01:14 AM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Spiderman]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
1KN is about 225lbs, so 1500lbs is 6.7KN or so. That's about 80% the rates strength of a black alien, 75% of Blue, Green and Yellow.

That *may* be good enough to know those cams will hold up to their rated strengths. But maybe not. If you test up to 80% for all the cams, can you trust that they won't fail at 81% when you take the big one?


Edited by quanto_the_mad (05/16/07 01:14 AM)
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#29223 - 05/16/07 02:06 AM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Spiderman Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 178
Loc: Long Island N.Y.
there are no big ones for me, i sew it up.
_________________________
I can't climb enough!
But I am climbing more!!

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#29275 - 05/16/07 09:27 PM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: Spiderman]
paulraphael Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
If you have your own coffin hoist, who cares how much your cams can hold.

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#29281 - 05/17/07 01:39 AM Re: Sell your Aliens... Buy beer! [Re: paulraphael]
Spiderman Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 178
Loc: Long Island N.Y.
The chain fall works much better!!
_________________________
I can't climb enough!
But I am climbing more!!

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#29312 - 05/18/07 12:05 AM $12 saved Dill? [Re: Spiderman]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 134

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#29313 - 05/18/07 12:45 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: Ralph]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Damn! I was just on that last weekend... I clipped it, and it wasn't loose...

Maybe I'll have to check this weekend... Unless, someone else gets it first... ;\)
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29317 - 05/18/07 03:35 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: Dillbag]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
It looked like it was gonna fall out. Played with it for about 2.5 seconds until I lost interest.

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#29321 - 05/18/07 11:42 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: Smike]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
Played with it for about 2.5 seconds until I lost interest.


Wow Smike! That's some intense focus... have you been taking your ADHD drugs again? \:D
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29322 - 05/18/07 11:48 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Was my simile between MG and the the other climb we did accurate?

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#29323 - 05/18/07 01:18 PM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: strat]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Yes... but MG is longer...

But both are fun!
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#29324 - 05/18/07 01:31 PM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: Dillbag]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Good to know my memory of MG is accurate and that 5.2 means there's only 2 5.6 moves on a climb.

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#29405 - 05/22/07 02:07 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: strat]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
What the fuck is MG?

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#29406 - 05/22/07 02:26 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: RangerRob]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Madame G's
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#29411 - 05/22/07 11:52 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: RangerRob]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Why you gotta curse?

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#29412 - 05/22/07 11:56 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: strat]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
why the fuck not?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29431 - 05/23/07 04:03 AM Re: $12 saved Dill? [Re: empicard]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Absofuckinlutely

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#29540 - 05/29/07 02:15 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Well today made it 2 whippers on aliens this season. so far so good...(Your results may vary)

Oh ya thanks to Dillbag+LTL's brand new outta the box virgin rope. I think I must have been distracted with the super day-glow color.

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#29544 - 05/29/07 01:52 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
 Originally Posted By: Smike
Well today made it 2 whippers on aliens this season. so far so good...(Your results may vary)

Oh ya thanks to Dillbag+LTL's brand new outta the box virgin rope. I think I must have been distracted with the super day-glow color.


THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. YOUR MILEAGE MIGHT VARY! AND NOT BECAUSE I'M FAT OR DON'T PLACE GEAR AS GOOD AS SOMEONE ELSE!

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#29546 - 05/29/07 02:23 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
 Originally Posted By: Smike
Well today made it 2 whippers on aliens this season. so far so good...(Your results may vary)

Oh ya thanks to Dillbag+LTL's brand new outta the box virgin rope. I think I must have been distracted with the super day-glow color.


Hmmph!

I had three or four whippers on that nice piton on Try Again! It was great! (your results may vary!)

and that was on my old brown fleabitten TR rope...

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#29547 - 05/29/07 03:36 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
 Originally Posted By: strat


THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. YOUR MILEAGE MIGHT VARY! AND NOT BECAUSE I'M FAT OR DON'T PLACE GEAR AS GOOD AS SOMEONE ELSE!


TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS FUN. \:D

Anyone trusting their Aliens based on my whippers should have there head examined. Not because I don’t weigh much, or that I sometimes may place good gear, or get lucky.


Edited by Smike (05/29/07 03:48 PM)

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#29568 - 05/30/07 05:49 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
I've tested all my Aliens to 3-4kN, and my gf's to 5-6kN. I now trust them exactly that much.

I was kinda hoping the head would pop off her gray alien dated from mid '05, (no dimple) but of course the chances of even that one being bad were small. Just not insignificantly small. Oh well. Need more aliens to test. Anyone wanna give me some?

GO

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#29572 - 05/30/07 06:22 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: GOclimb]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
GO? how did you test yours? I've got 2 non-dimpled units from the recall period i might be willing to experiment with.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29574 - 05/30/07 06:35 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: GOclimb]
socialist1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 145
Loc: New Brunswick, NJ
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
I've tested all my Aliens to 3-4kN, and my gf's to 5-6kN. I now trust them exactly that much.


There's the rub though, can you really be sure that the braze will consistently hold at these forces? I think it may be hard to predict how many load cycles a bad braze can take.

Even though they are my favorite cams by far, Im going to wait til they get their act together.

Ross

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#29575 - 05/30/07 06:43 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: GOclimb]
ShakesALot Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 255
Loc: NJ
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
I've tested all my Aliens to 3-4kN, and my gf's to 5-6kN. I now trust them exactly that much.

I was kinda hoping the head would pop off her gray alien dated from mid '05, (no dimple) but of course the chances of even that one being bad were small. Just not insignificantly small. Oh well. Need more aliens to test. Anyone wanna give me some?

GO


How are you testing them? Are you offering a testing service or asking for donations?

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#29576 - 05/30/07 06:48 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: ShakesALot]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
Anyone wanna give me some?

GO


Umm... Dillbag, is still offering to pay $$ to people for Aliens! Sorry GO...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29592 - 05/30/07 09:32 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: ShakesALot]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Russ Walling, (FISH Products) is offering a pull test service, I believe.

Played with a bunch of C3's at EMS last Sunday - I think I'll be buying them, and maybe Zeros, instead of Aliens, in future.

P
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#29594 - 05/30/07 09:54 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: irisharehere]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
what the hell for? when was the last time you climbed a rock, labrat?
now hedgerat i suppose?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29603 - 05/31/07 01:34 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: empicard]
irisharehere Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Danbury CT
Hey, someone's gotta keep the S&P500 moving!!!!!! And I had to go take my driving test - bone-chilling experience............for the examiner!!!!!!

But if you want a chance to hurl more abuse at me, whatcha doing on the 10th?

And, ahem, who'se lickle fingers got cold in Multi Gulley so we had to bail?????? OK, maybe I didn't fight you too hard on that one though!
_________________________
I didn't spend nine years in Evil Graduate School to be called "Mr Irish", thank you!

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#29604 - 05/31/07 02:43 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: irisharehere]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: irisharehere


Played with a bunch of C3's at EMS last Sunday - I think I'll be buying them, and maybe Zeros, instead of Aliens, in future.

P


If you want to get some time with a Zero, I managed to accumulate an extra blue one (Z5, about the same size as a yellow Alien). Very little use, $35.

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#29607 - 05/31/07 11:21 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
lickle?
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29609 - 05/31/07 01:26 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: empicard]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Here you go... Lickle

Although... It really makes me wonder what you two were doing up there!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29610 - 05/31/07 01:58 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
we bailed on multi gully because you took 45 minutes to lead a 30 foot pitch of grade 1+ ice! youre the only person i know that takes BOTH hands out of the leashes to place a screw. oh, and lets not forget the other 10 minutes to set up the belay. and then start belaying me and then "hey jackass, how about you pull up this 170 feet of rope before you put me on belay?"
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
he really is the alpine butterfly.
_________________________
tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#29620 - 05/31/07 04:39 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: empicard]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: empicard
GO? how did you test yours? I've got 2 non-dimpled units from the recall period i might be willing to experiment with.


Spectra sling around a big rock. Haul big rock about 2 feet above the cam. Attach the big rock to the Alien (in a good placement that doesn't stress the stem).

So the attachment is: rock -> spectra sling -> locking biner -> nylon fuse -> locking biner -> alien. Then factor 2 the rock onto the alien. When dropped, the nylon fuse breaks, unless the placement was poor, in which case, the alien rips out. Or, of course, if there's a manufacturing defect, the cam itself would fail, but I haven't seen that yet.

The fuse I used in the first set of tests was: PMI 3mm Tech Cord. They rate it with a minimum breaking strength of 1.7kN. I made a loop of it tied with a double fishermans. If the MBS is exact, it should fail at just about 3kN. Though if there's a safety margin on the cord, It might put as much as 4kN of force on the cam before failing. It usually failed at the knot.

For the second set of tests I found a 3mm tech cord from Sterling, rated with an MBS of 2.6kN (perfect!) A loop of that should get me a force of around 4.5-5.5kN.

By the way, the biner on the cam takes very little abuse, but all the other gear takes plenty. After a few test rounds, with a big rock falling on it, the spectra sling and the biner attaching it to the fuse (which fall to the ground each time) were pretty beat up. After about 10 tests, the spectra sling finally gave up the ghost completely. So if you feel like playing along these lines, don't use your favorite gear. Oh, and the cams look great after the test. Certainly some fairly deep gouges in the lobes if they're set up against a crystal but nothing troubling.

Oh, and please note that I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS METHOD TO TEST YOUR CAMS! The above is merely a description of what I did. If you do the above, you do so on your own terms. The above may kill you, your family, and your dog.

A lot of people have asked, so I'll try to get the video up online sometime in the next week or so.

GO

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#29621 - 05/31/07 04:46 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: GOclimb]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
Oh, and for folks who are seriously interested in unloading their Aliens, I'm not really interested in paying anything close to market rate. As for gear I need right now, small cams just aren't high on the list, sorry. I would gladly take them, test them, and they'd happily find a place on my rack if they passed, but I wouldn't pay (much) more than shipping.

GO

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#29627 - 05/31/07 06:28 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: GOclimb]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
but I wouldn't pay (much) more than shipping



..but I will!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29645 - 06/01/07 12:44 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Interesting to see in the climbing mags (e.g. Rock and Ice) LOTS more full page ads for the small BD's
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

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#29684 - 06/04/07 02:04 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: d-elvis]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
Yep CCH is done as far as a company goes. Talk about the climbing world's poster child for how not to do buisness. I don't know the whole story of how things got so f-ed up because I don't know the company's history. One thing for sure... no matter what the history they have no future.

How bad does the CCH product suck? The highest bid for their cams is a 12 dollar offer from a guy named Dillbag.

My advise is to hang onto the cams....this way sometime in the future after a lawsuit or settlement, CCH and/or their insurance company will have to buy them back for alot more than 12 bucks each.

Who is the insurer for the CCH brand anyways?

Climer

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#29686 - 06/04/07 03:11 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Climer]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
While I'm not sure I share your pessimistic outlook, let's play out what it would look like.

Possible outcome 1 - CCH's design and tooling are bought by a larger company and the Aliens live on, probably at a somewhat increased price.


Possible outcome 2 - CCH goes belly up. Climbers holding Aliens become "unsecured creditors" and get precisely nothing.

Possible outcome 3 - there's a class action suit. Not sure if un-injured climbers will have standing to sue (you need to show you were damaged by the company's actions, if I learned my Law 101 basics), but who knows, maybe the court sees "psychological damages" due to lack of confidence in these cams. A successful suit would probably lead to outcome 2, with similar non-awards.

My advice - Hang on to the Aliens. Someone will step forward to test them rigorously for $5/each + shipping. That's where the real money will be made as this event plays out.

Or... I could be all wrong.

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#29692 - 06/04/07 03:34 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Climer]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: Climer
How bad does the CCH product suck? The highest bid for their cams is a 12 dollar offer from a guy named Dillbag.


I guess that was meant to be funny. But in reality, they're still selling like hotcakes on ebay.

GO

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#29693 - 06/04/07 03:35 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
As Dillbag keeps pointing out, no one is taking him up on his offer. The truth is that most of us are quietly climbing on our Aliens, though with perhaps a second thought now and then.

OTOH, I wouldn't buy a new one right now and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else. So yeah, as a company their future is in deep doodoo.

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#29694 - 06/04/07 03:39 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
As Dillbag keeps pointing out, no one is taking him up on his offer.


Seriously!

 Quote:
OTOH, I wouldn't buy a new one right now...


Although, it seems that the hybrids are still selling briskly at R&S... Full shelf one weekend, following weekend only a handful left... in that awkward size of Red/Yellow
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29696 - 06/04/07 04:39 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
Without getting too looney tunes and what if-ing the heck outta the whole thing....CCH's answer to their product problems is to have them tested? So if I have an alien that I think could be bad I should send it back to the guys who made the (possibly) bad cam to have them put a load on it comperable to the unit's stated breaking strength? Lets stress the crap outta this cam and then send it back to the poor sucker who is worried about it enough to send it to CCH for "testing"...Does that sound like a sound buisness decision to you or does it sound like covering your butt the way the company lawyers say it will limit liability?

Funny I always believed that if you put a load on a piece of gear near it's breaking strength that you should RETIRE the freaking gear. Is there another climbing protection company who would tell you that you should keep using a piece of gear that has had a force applied to it near or at it's breaking strength. If there is I would like to hear it.

Ask yourself honestly.... If you were the CEO of Petzl would you invest in a obviously defunct company like that? Tough to make money with a brand with these kind of problems. People are still in buisness to make money right? Best thing that could happen is that all the climbing companies get together and buy those idiots out before it does go to a lawsuit and drive the price of all camming units off the shelves.

OK back to the looney tunes.....Possible outcome#107 A mostly unknown climber named Dillbag aquires 1/2 of all the CCH cams ever made for 12 bucks each and sets out to free the nose. With cameras rolling and only 3 pitches to go he wanders off-route and gets himself in a bind. Totally sketched and waaay above his last pro, he plugs in a alien that unknown to him was not only pull tested by CCH but then again by Joe in his "garage lab" before Joe sold it to Dillbag. Dillbag comes off and the cable snaps hurling Dillbag into the great rockkclimb in the sky. Dillbag is remembered on a nice memorial just outside camp 4 with a statue of him holding up a alien cam....the inscription reads...I not scared. The eventual lawsuit filed in a far left wing California court stated that although CCH knew that their products were defective that their lawyers had covered their butts enough that they were not responsible for causing Dillbag's death. The judge ordered no damages be awarded and thanked CCH for eliminating Dillbag from the genepool.

CLimer

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#29697 - 06/04/07 04:57 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Climer]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
You're not investing in the brand. You're investing in the design and the intellectual property to support it. Then, you use YOUR brand and YOUR manufacturing to implement the design.

The fact is that the ALIEN cam design is oustanding and superior to many other designs.

As the CEO of Petzl, I'd be all over acquiring their intellectual property particularly as it gives me some SUBSTANTIAL competitive advantage over the other small cams that are out there.

In terms of acquiring the company- Eh, don't know. There may be some physical assets and their may be some tacit knowledge built up in the employees, but, it's the design and the IP I want to own.

And the scenario you paint for Dillbag....based on what Dillbag has posted, you have no idea what he intends to do with the cams he buys. He's never said he would put them into service on his rack. He might very well be making Christmas ornaments out of them....

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#29702 - 06/04/07 06:21 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Ok... Sooooo... First off, umm, what Mr. Strat there just said!

Second...

 Quote:
the looney tunes.....

I'm safe! Hahaha... Just like the coyote! I'll just bounce!

 Quote:
A mostly unknown climber named Dillbag

Well, in all honesty, that's not my real name... And, I'm entirely unknown... Not mostly, but thanks for the encouragement!

 Quote:
...aquires 1/2 of all the CCH cams ever made for 12 bucks each

Not happening at the current rate...of none! But again, thanks for the encouragement!

 Quote:
...and sets out to free the nose. With cameras rolling and only 3 pitches to go he wanders off-route and gets himself in a bind.

I don't think I'd get within 3 pitches of the top... But maybe! Now as far as getting off route, probably not going to happen, unless of course I get route beta from RangerRob! That guy! Man... He's on a tear with EXCELLENT beta! ;\)

 Quote:
Totally sketched and waaay above his last pro, he plugs in a alien that unknown to him was not only pull tested by CCH but then again by Joe in his "garage lab" before Joe sold it to Dillbag.

I would buy Joe's cams, but I don't think he's going to sell them to me or anyone for that matter (I don't even think he has an account with any boards)... And I've seen his garage! Definitely some Ice Screw modifications going on there, but usually more golf going on than rock climbing...

 Quote:
Dillbag comes off and the cable snaps hurling Dillbag into the great rockkclimb in the sky.

OK! Now, I know you don't have any idea what you are talking about! The cables on Aliens are BOMBER! Now the swaging and brazing... that could be a problem on some units... But the cables! Oh man! They are TRUCK!

 Quote:
Dillbag is remembered on a nice memorial just outside camp 4 with a statue of him holding up a alien cam....the inscription reads...I not scared.

I don't think it would read "I not scared" my grammer-nazi of a GF wouldn't let that happen! Can't even read a menu or interpretative sign without the inevitable... "there should be a ; not a :" WTF? Who knew they were different! And don't get her started on the "-", "--" and "long dash thingy"...

 Quote:
The eventual lawsuit filed in a far left wing California court stated that although CCH knew that their products were defective that their lawyers had covered their butts enough that they were not responsible for causing Dillbag's death. The judge ordered no damages be awarded and thanked CCH for eliminating Dillbag from the genepool.

My lawyers advised me not to comment on this part of your statement...

But, man, why do you think I should be eliminated from the Genepool?

That's not very nice...!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29703 - 06/04/07 06:37 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
I don’t think anyone is arguing the merits of the design of the cams. I am not. Anyone can see the fault in the manufacturing of the units and I would advise someone who thinks CCH as a company is the shitzit to get their head examined.

Brand names are funny things. Stick a certain name on it and consumers will buy it or not because of the name. You as a company desiring to obtain another company do indeed look at the “brand” as a whole. You’d be a fool not too. Fact is most people out there couldn’t tell you how or why a camming unit works or have even a clue of how they are made. Most seem not to even care. You could have the best product on the shelf and suck eggs profit wise because of many different variables.

If the Alien (intellectual property) patent expires in late 2008 why on earth would you pay to use it. Bigger companies like Petzl didn’t get to be big by being stupid. After 2008 (if that is accurate) you can use their intellectual property to your hearts content. Sure you will see the aliens design in other cams in the future in the near future but I doubt that it will be made by CCH. You take a good design, go through the whole patent process and gain reputation and market share over time only to shoot yourself in the freakin foot just before your patent expires. Competitive advantage got nothing to do with it son. In todays marketplace you simply can’t screw up this big and survive....even in the tiny climbing protection marketplace where climbing loonies will stick to your brand even if it kills em. Anybody else find it funny that when you enter the CCH site you are met by a recall notice that you have to click off to get to the products page. Way to sell a product eh? 5 years from now I can see posts with the title “What ever happened to Aliens?”

As far as Dillbag goes... I only killed him off fictionally not in real life....and I did give em a statue.

Climer

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#29704 - 06/04/07 06:51 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
Mim Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 996
Loc: Gunks
Okay - so I led Drunkard's Delight for the first time last week in a very long time and did so by borrowing my friend's (red?)Alien and putting it in the horizontal crack before 'the move'.

This was the first time I did this move protected, as I don't own Aliens and usually wait to put a nut in the vertical crack, after 'the move', and honestly, it was very very nice to do this move protected.

So the next day I paid a visit to my local climbing shop and drooled in front of the Aliens... thinking that I should get a set. I ask the guy at the front desk if after what I had read on this thread, he felt they were still safe to use. He glared at me saying they would never sell gear deemed unsafe.

Having my daughter urge me last year to pleeeeeze do a yard sale, we finally got to it this past Saturday. My only, and I mean only, motivation in going through this hell (hell is defined as... come back from a big week at work Friday and get all the junk from the basement to the living room, sort, label, etc, get up at 6A the next morning to take all the same junk out in the front yard so it is all ready to go by 9a, lemonade stand and all. Sit in the semi shade of the trees in 90 degree heat with 90% humidity, only to have daughter abandon ship at noon because she is too bored and hot.) my only motivation, like I was saying, was to buy a set of Aliens with the extra $$ earned that day (whatever is left after you place an ad in the local newspaper, make signs with posterboards, buy cookie dough and lemonade is very much questionable.)

So should I - or should I not - buy those Aliens (maybe 2?)
THAT is the question...
_________________________
Mim

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#29708 - 06/04/07 07:36 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Climer]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
Thanks for the business lesson.

Since I'm in the business of acquiring and implementing external technology, I sure would like to learn from your skills in the area.

Will you be my teacher?

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#29709 - 06/04/07 07:43 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mim]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Mim get the green, yellow and red.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

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#29710 - 06/04/07 07:45 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: talus]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
Yo Dillbag

Wtf are you babbling about?

-ped

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#29711 - 06/04/07 08:05 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: pedestrian]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Scenario number...whatever: RR shakes his head at all these people who were climbing on their gear for years with no worries, and then all of a sudden they totally abandon them. RR then proceeds to climb like he always has....in a fevered and uncoordinated fashion, and falls on every one of his Aliens....multiple times, in every direction known to mankind.

Outcome: RR hangs from the rope. fat, happy, and safe because he has thoroughly field tested every one of his current Aliens.

RR

P.S. You can back up that pin at the crux of Procto***** with a red Alien

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#29717 - 06/04/07 08:32 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: RangerRob]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
Wtf are you babbling about?


Ummm... the usual, aliens and people making fun of me...
_________________________
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#29718 - 06/04/07 08:53 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
Now Now Dillbug I was not picking on you. I was using you in a fictional example. It's called creative license.

If I was picking on you it would go something like this.

Scenario # 213450 Headline in CLimbing mag reads....Strat a unknown climber and unruly contributor to a online discussion group recently purchased the failing CCH company swearing to turn it around. Believing that the Substantial competitive advantage the company possessed and his catchy new slogan were the keys to success...when prompted on what that new slogan might be Start stated::: Alien cams so easy to place even a Dillbag can do it.

See how different that is?
Climer

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#29719 - 06/04/07 08:54 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mim]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: Mim
Okay - so I led Drunkard's Delight for the first time last week in a very long time and did so by borrowing my friend's (red?)Alien and putting it in the horizontal crack before 'the move'.

This was the first time I did this move protected, as I don't own Aliens and usually wait to put a nut in the vertical crack, after 'the move', and honestly, it was very very nice to do this move protected.

So the next day I paid a visit to my local climbing shop and drooled in front of the Aliens... thinking that I should get a set.

Just 'cause a red Alien worked on DD and protected the crux move, don't be fooled into thinking that only a red Alien would work. For example, the BD #0.5 C4 is the same size as the red Alien. Using the DD example, I, too, was very happy the first time I was able to get in pro before the stopper in the vertical crack. It was with some early, homemade TCU prototypes that I brought back from the Valley.
_________________________
- Marc

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#29720 - 06/04/07 09:01 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Climer]
strat Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 4242
editor's note. Strat an unknown....

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#29721 - 06/04/07 09:09 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: RangerRob]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
Yeah I feel the same way. I never bought any aliens, I like other cams better but I have a couple booty aliens on my rack I picked up during a lighting storm rap on Cannon a few years back. I don't remember ever falling on either one but they get placed from time to time. I ain't sending them back either....2 wrongs don't make a right.

Some rumor on another site said CCH ain't even manufacturing them anymore. Rumors only of course.

CLimer

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#29726 - 06/04/07 09:40 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
 Quote:
the BD #0.5 C4 is the same size as the red Alien


wellllllll \:\/ most times it does work, sometimes only the Red will go. (can't remember on DD been way to long)I say this by having to put back my .05 purple enought times to shove in the Red Alien

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#29730 - 06/04/07 10:07 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
Alien cams so easy to place even a Dillbag can do it


...Ok, you're right... And that's probably something that Strat might just say...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29740 - 06/05/07 12:55 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Smike]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: Smike
 Quote:
the BD #0.5 C4 is the same size as the red Alien


wellllllll \:\/ most times it does work, sometimes only the Red will go. (can't remember on DD been way to long)I say this by having to put back my .05 purple enought times to shove in the Red Alien


Indeed. The smaller BD units are the widest cams in the game. Without measuring them, I'd guess that the 0.5 BD is at least 1.6x as wide as a red Alien. That makes a dramatic difference in where they can go. I challenge you to pro the opening move of Absurdland with a .5 BD, for example. Ain't gonna happen. RA tucks in there like it was made for it.

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#29747 - 06/05/07 01:29 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I thought the mandatory pro for Drunkard's opening was a blindly placed BLUE alien near your feet, until I got C3s.

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#29752 - 06/05/07 02:03 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Climer]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
 Quote:
If the Alien (intellectual property) patent expires in late 2008 why on earth would you pay to use it.

Does anyone have the patent link? I'd like to take alook at it. I google patent searched "climbing cam" and found a ton of stuff... but can't figure which is the alien. Whoda thunk THAT many cams have been patented?

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#29758 - 06/05/07 04:45 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: chazman]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
I posted the link over in the 'buying small cams' thread.

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#29768 - 06/05/07 01:51 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
 Quote:
I challenge you to pro the opening move of Absurdland with a .5 BD, for example.

A .5? I use a #2. And where does this red Alien go in on Drunkard's. I have a red Alien. I've hit the ground from Drunkard's. This is more than a hypothetical question.

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#29771 - 06/05/07 02:14 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
And where does this red Alien go in on Drunkard's


I second this question! As I found that whole opening sequence quite intense!

As far as Absurdland... Yeah, I put in a #2 also, but in hindsight... It doesn't protect you for more than an inch or two... A good spot is better.
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29772 - 06/05/07 02:15 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
This is why Mike puts in the red alien... a bit above where the #2 goes.. and skips the #2 entirely

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#29776 - 06/05/07 03:10 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: pedestrian]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Seems to me we to often hear of placements at the start of routes that really don’t protect you from the possible fall. I didn’t get out a ruler at Drunkards, but I didn’t bother to place gear, solely cause it didn’t seem that was going to save me when I wanted it to be able to – at the crux.

Added: Besides, Dawn's already proven the fall survivable!

Closer to the topic, No I would not purchase current Aliens. I trust old used Aliens before a new ones any day. So I’d say if you really want Aliens, then find someone who has left climbing and doesn’t need them any more.



Edited by mworking (06/05/07 05:58 PM)

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#29778 - 06/05/07 03:29 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: mworking
Seems to me we to often hear of placements at the start of routes that really don’t protect you from the possible fall. I didn’t get out a ruler at Drunkards, but I didn’t bother to place gear, solely cause it didnt' seem that was going to save me when I wanted it to be able to – at the crux.

Sometimes I place gear not to necessarily keep me off the ground, it's to hopefully lessen the consequences. Chances are if you pitch on DD, it will probably be your hands sliding off the greasy basketball rather than your feet popping. Since you're in a scrunched position, this means potentially going over backwards and landing on your head. Hopefully, that early piece will get me more upright or at least cushion the impact. There's also the possibility of grabbing it's sling to the same effect in a fall.
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#29779 - 06/05/07 03:36 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I do the high traverse on Drunkard's, so I doubt anything is keeping me off the ground. On the other hand, I did land feet first.

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#29781 - 06/05/07 04:03 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
There's also the possibility of grabbing it's sling to the same effect in a fall.


Yeah... Well, just make sure you don't accidentally grab the biner!

Check out this story!
Warning! Graphic photos of the finger!
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#29785 - 06/05/07 04:24 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Ouch!

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#29801 - 06/06/07 01:14 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: chip]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Does anyone remember stoppers or tri-cams? I seem to remember a pretty good pink tri-cam at the start of Absurdland, if one would choose to place anything there.

RR

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#29802 - 06/06/07 03:05 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: RangerRob]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Does anyone remember stoppers or tri-cams?...
RR



Since you're asking, it sounds as if I placed a bomber nut where Chip remebers a blue Alien on DD. That was after the high traverse as Dawn does it.

I have to admit that on my last trip i placed only a few nuts in a day of climbing, far fewer than I have ever placed before. Not sure, but I think I was trying to be efficient, and I really didn't feel as if I needed the pro very often that day.


Edited by mworking (06/06/07 03:14 AM)

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#29839 - 06/06/07 05:44 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Not completely sure why, but it is the green alien that I feel just fits better than anything else for that size and which I am most reluctant to give up. Yeah, a blue C4 is essentially the same size but sometimes the crack just doesn't quite accomodate the wider set-up of the cams. The larger two C3s are just a bit bigger and smaller than this size, besides which, I really like 4 cams when I can get 'em. Anything else protects fine with Tri-cams, C3s, nuts. The time is now for someone to take up the design and make a more reliable device, but this is very unlikely with the patent running out unless the current owner realizes there is little worth left to the company name and takes what little is offered now, instead of letting the whole thing go for nothing next year.

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#30335 - 06/19/07 08:21 PM Potential Legal Action Against CCH [Re: nerdom]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
_________________________
"Marriage Survivor"

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#30363 - 06/20/07 01:40 PM Re: Potential Legal Action Against CCH [Re: d-elvis]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
 Quote:
If you have been injured due to the failure of a mountain climbing camming anchor (alien cam)

Sounds like they know their stuff.

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#30417 - 06/21/07 09:05 PM Re: Potential Legal Action Against CCH [Re: d-elvis]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
When the lawyers crosshair you like that...its dread man...real dread

CLimer

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#30423 - 06/21/07 10:34 PM Re: Potential Legal Action Against CCH [Re: Climer]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
From the looks of the group that is asking about injuries... Seems like they are "ambulance chasers" or more correctly "products that have been recalled chasers"

Doesn't look like they were approached by anyone to sue on their behalf... Looks more like they are looking for someone to allow them to sue!
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#30425 - 06/22/07 01:10 AM Re: Potential Legal Action Against CCH [Re: Dillbag]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Judging from the settlement history well in advance of several million from many prior cases, these lawyers seem to be much more then the typical ambulance chasers. It appears they are in a research phase and will evaluate whether they will take on the case based on the feedback they get. If I was CCH, I would be very afraid if they decide to build a case, these guys don't look like fly by night type lawyers.

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#30430 - 06/22/07 12:58 PM Re: Potential Legal Action Against CCH [Re: Smike]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
IMO, CCH is a small shop, they "probably" carry liability insurance, but the limits on that would get hit fast and then on to the company's assets.
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#30800 - 07/04/07 08:41 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: learningtolead]
rackrat Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 160
Loc: NYC - UWS
Simply put, there's no reason to use gear whose safety is in question, given that there are a number of solid design & production companies out there. I have a yellow and green 01' aliens on my rack, both fallen on and both tested to 75%. I've retired the other aliens for sole use on my big-wall rack, as they were later additions and have passed some basic tests to around 25%.

Metolius UL TCU's and BD C3's fill out the small cams section of my rack. They are both lighter, more durable, and properly tested. If you compare the designs of C3's, Metolius Ultra Lights, and Aliens... the Aliens simply don't stack up anymore. When introduced, they were innovative. At this point, their design has been surpassed.

My rack has changed over the last 15 years. Started with Ovals on Perlon and Nylon, now have Heliums on Spectra and Dyneema. Times change, we need to change with them.
_________________________
Trad is the only way to fly.

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#30805 - 07/04/07 06:28 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: rackrat]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 134
Dill,

Is $14.83 for black or purple still in your price range?http://www.rei.com/product/605711

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#30817 - 07/05/07 01:58 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Ralph]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
 Originally Posted By: Ralph
Dill,

Is $14.83 for black or purple still in your price range?http://www.rei.com/product/605711


Holy crap, that seems sketchy for REI to be doing! Having a fire sale on suspect cams! damn.
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we're all living proof that nothing lasts

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#30819 - 07/05/07 02:41 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: nerdom]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
That page currently states:

We're sorry, the Colorado Custom Hardware Aliens Camming Device is unavailable.
_________________________
- Marc

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#30820 - 07/05/07 02:51 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: MarcC]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Sometimes I see that, sometimes not!

If you do see it click on :"Show all Colorado Custom Hardware products".

Anyone tried to purchase a unit?

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#30825 - 07/05/07 04:21 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: mworking]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
I've just replaced all my Aliens with C3's. I think you'd have to be a little nuts to climb on any new Aliens. $14/each is a lot for suspect garbage.... but that's just me.... Go search all the threads on Supertopo.com if you want more info...

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#31284 - 07/18/07 02:33 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: fear]
rickcee Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 248
Loc: central Jersey
Hi haven't been climbing in a while ( like 3 years) thought I'd check things out - Lo and behold, Aliens problem . . . I have 5 : I think there's a date stamp on 3 of them, like 0201 - I think I bought them in '01 - a couple seem to have no markings. Mine look different than the picture on Alien website - my trigger wires are solid wire where they attach to actual cam, and lower half, are a multi strand wire . . .
good to go ? Junk em ? when I was climbing I liked them better'n my friends, thou I was never good enough to note any real difference.

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#31287 - 07/18/07 03:51 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: rickcee]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
I've always trusted mine (but never fallen on them, go figure. hangdogging belaying and toproping on them doesn't count.)

My Aliens are way old, from around 2002 or so. Definitely well before the center punch quality issue thing, for sure. But now the problem is my green alien is becoming impossible to actuate with the trigger. I guess maybe some lube will do the trick, but I'm wondering if something else is up.

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#31290 - 07/18/07 11:04 AM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: rickcee]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Rickcee, the trigger wires have changed, but that's not the issue. AFAIK, no problems have surfaced with Aliens of the age you have, so I'd say keep using them. But some folks seem to have lost all faith in them. I believe you can send them to CCH to get them tested. They did this to a bunch of recalled units (later production dates than yours) for no charge, but they might charge you a nominal fee.

Plus, there's a certain crazy user here who will buy them from you if you don't want them anymore.

His price is too low though.

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#31292 - 07/18/07 12:55 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Plus, there's a certain crazy user here who will buy them from you if you don't want them anymore.


That would be me! \:D

 Quote:
His price is too low though.


Nah... It's a good price! And the $12 still stands!
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#31310 - 07/18/07 03:54 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: Dillbag]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
So I got bored while waiting around the bottom of a climb and remembered I still had my untested greeny in the packed. I placed and bounced like a fiend on it for a few minutes. While not the most scientific test, I was jumping on spectra slings for as little energy absorbtion as possible. I have pronounced it worthy and will keep it for now. Sorry Dill.

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#31315 - 07/18/07 05:14 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: chip]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
The alien Russ pulled broke at 900lbs. Were you able to generate 4KN with your bounce test? Chris from BD said he was able to generate 1000lbs doing some serious bouncing with several inches of free-fall; I don't think I was able to generate that much force in my bounce tests.

The aliens that failed in the field all failed with body weight or small falls... maybe a bounce test would have helped, maybe not. The loop swage failure certainly would have been detected.
_________________________


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#31317 - 07/18/07 05:33 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Again, completely unscientific testing. I was lifting myself by jumping about a foot up with the slings on my feet stopping all downward force each time. Looked pretty funny, I'm sure. I'm feeling good about greeny now and hope that is the worst test it ever gets.

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#31346 - 07/19/07 01:20 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: chip]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
Using a screamer, I discovered that I was unable to generate over 2kN of force by bouncing. Of course, I'm a pipsqueak, at 150#, so perhaps you can do better than that. Anyway, that's why I wound up doing the testing I did (described above).

GO

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#31768 - 08/01/07 04:10 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2354
Loc: Boston
Note, I just heard that Metolius is coming out with a new single-stem cam, to be shown at the OR show in a few weeks.

Will this be a Metolius-made Alien (by any other name would smell *more* sweet)? Stand by, we'll soon find out!

GO

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#31776 - 08/01/07 05:18 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: GOclimb]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
Crackers...

You gonna be there? Make sure you take your digital! We need photos... And lots of them!

Oh, and if you do another interview... Make sure you post the link! It was fun to watch last year ;\)
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...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

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#32957 - 09/10/07 06:51 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: strat]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I now have a lot of faith in my green Alien.

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#32960 - 09/10/07 07:01 PM Re: More Alien issues? [Re: dalguard]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Sounds like a good story. Glad all is well.

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