Esteemed Gunkies,

I have a friend who is ready to experience the sharp end on a gunks moderate on my preplaced gear. I am looking for the route that best achieves the following:

Is a 5.5 or less.

Has very good gear off the ground or belay ledge (ie no possiblity of decking at the second piece...)

Does not wander (minimal traversing, no rope drag issues..)

Has a rap anchor at the top of the pitch with a good stance for first time belayer from top of route.

I had a few more considerations that seem to escape me. So does anyone have an opinion of the best gunks moderate to "sportify"?

Thanks.

Jeff

Three Pines

fingerlocks

bunny

Jackie
Fingerlocks

Possibly Horseman? As for traversing/rope drag, isn't that something you could address while preplacing the gear (i.e., long sling(s)in corner, etc.)?

Not sure what you mean by "first time belayer from top of route." I hope this means first time belaying from the top of the route, and not first time belaying at all.

Assuming the former, the ledge at the top of pitch 1 of Horseman isn't ideal for the first time "top-belayer," although it's not terrible. You might also consider leading the second pitch of various climbs (including Horseman), then rapping/lowering down to the belay ledge so that your friend could lead back up on your pre-placed gear.

How about take him to Rumney?

What is the objective here... to train for a trip to Rumney? Why would you want to "sportify" a Gunks route? Why not throw him on TR and let him do a mock lead and then go back and review the placements. Not sure what clipping preplaced gear does for your climbing knowledge at the Gunks. As for a suggestion (to stay on topic ) why not Rhododendron... or is it Laurel... the easier of the two right behind the tree. You can place lot of gear, dead straight line, big stance with chains up top,... sportify away!

yeah...what chazman said.

If a person hasn't learned to place gear yet, why would they be considered ready for the sharp end? I always thought the "way" was:
1) following
2) ground school gear placement/review
3) more following
4) development of a severe itch to lead
5) finding someone to hold your rope while you saddle up and ride


Solid gear placement is THE big issue on leading; so much more imperative than being able to clip a biner efficiently.....

Well, assuming one buys into the idea of leading on preplaced gear (It's not the way I would go, but to each....)

The first pitch of Hawk is the best bet. 75' of 5.3 climbing with bomber gear, an absolutely straight line, and a bomber tree on a ledge for a belay + no cummunication issues.

Just not on a busy weekend when the upper pitches are dry :).

Finger Locks is also a good suggestion.

Jackie, Laurel, and Rhododendron are not 5.5 and under, so the folks who suggested those might want to reread the original post.

Horseman either has
1) No easy belay stance if done in 2 pitches, or
2) No easy way to communicate if the climb is done in 1 pitch.

A few points.

Rumney would be an option but I'm not keen on driving up there and sleeping on the ground. Plus I'm not so interested in having this person think there is a difference between good gear and bolts (as it took me some time to mentally bridge that gap).

What I had in mind...

First would be a mock lead. Then I would clean the route and evaluate gear and replace it also placing more gear if possible. Then rap and let my friend lead back up the route with the evaluated gear.

From my own personal experience, mock leading is simply placing gear on a top rope and allows someone to practice the physical mechanics of leading. Of course this is important/helpful but it does not touch on the mental aspect of climbing above gear and confidence in climbing ability.

BTW. As a follower the climber has done really well. She always arrives at the anchor with the gear perfectly reracked and has been removing and replacing my gear. Although I don't necessarily agree with someone of her experience leading (i.e. being the one making anchoring, belaying, routefinding decisions) I think it is time to give her a taste and better understand the skills she is learning and should be focusing on as a follower.

I thought about the second pitch of horsemans but would rather not be working off a hanging pin belay. I was thinking that the first pitch would be good but wouldnt be the greatest for her to belay from the top (again the hanging belay rope management issue). Fingerlocks seems a little short. Bunny might fit the bill.

Thanks for the ideas.

Easy Keyhole
Bunny
Jackie
Three Pines

Weird question, but to each his own.

GO

Jeff D: I'd suggest working with her on ground-school, until you're confident in her gear-placing, anchoring, and belaying from above. Then, send her up.

But whatever floats your boat.

GO

Funny, I always thought that self-confidence, climbing ability, physical shape, and a "good head" for exposure were the critical elements. Sport-leading might be a good way to just get comfortable climbing (and not falling) above your gear.

Gear is important but if you don't have what it takes in other departments, the gear often isn't good enough to save you.

I don't think you're going to be able to repeatedly go up and down one pitch of an easy multi-pitch route without annoying a lot of other people, so a single pitch route would be best. The hardest move on Bunny comes before you get gear and it's a long route. Fingerlocks seems like a good choice. Tons of gear, all bomber, and people are used to it being tied up by guided parties.

So what does she want to do? Does she want to lead or have you just decided it's "time" for her to? If she does, does she want to fake it or do it? I know it's common these days to baby people through the leading experience but a lot of us started leading by . . . leading.

We are usually on route by 6:30am so I have no worries about the crowds. Plus I would have no trouble telling someone that they are just going to have to wait... Theres enough parties that take 2 hours to get up a moderate route that I can get my two hours in this special circumstance (not that anyone is queing up at 7am).

She wants to lead. I let her lead 40 feet of 5.reallyeasy the other day and she wants more. That said, she really doesn't understand 100% of whats required and I can only teach so much without coming off as authoritative or preaching. I want to be supportive so I figure the best way is to fabricate a few intermediate steps to get her thinking about what skills and mental preparation will be neccessary to safely navigate her first few leads.

Good point.

GO

Alot of people (though not all)get their exposure to climbing through the gym nowadays. You know the type that can crank 5.12 but couldn't place a hex to save their lives? Some even use the gym as a progression point as in they top rope then ride the clip and goes listening to tunes and trying to impress the chicks.Clipping is subconsious to some of them by the time they ever place their 1st piece. My very first climbing experience was at Cannon on a blustery fall day on a route called Lakeview. I was scared all the way up and it snowed on the walk down and I froze my nuts off.I learned to climb back in the day before climbing gyms(aka the stoneage), cruely tutored by a cranky bastard that smelled like old socks. My first "lead" was on gear I placed on toprope then lowered and led through the gear that old stinky feet inspected ( and the lead was on double ropes). I thought it was a waste of time but Stinkyfeet thought it necessary. I don't remember the justification the he used.I was lead climbing within my 1st year on the cliffs(granted it was 5.easy)not because I was ready but because I wanted to.

My advice is to let Jeff do what the heck he wants how he wants. He is teaching this girl not u. None of us have any idea about her climbing abilities or leading head or how she reacts to exposure. We also don't know of Jeff's teaching style. Maybe he is just being conservative.

Back on topic...Bunny would fit but like mentioned Fingerlocks might be better.

...This post is not intended towards dalguard, just the post i clicked reply to...

I need to learn to type faster
CLimer

Peter's Kill would be a good place to go. You can mock lead on Captain's Log (5.4), then lead it. There is good gear right away, it is a short single pitch climb and there aren't any communication issues. There are a lot of 5.3-5.6 climbs to do there that are good for working on placements and climbing over gear.

the last time and every time that I have checked Jackie was 5.5

Uh, so it is ...

but still not a good choice for other reasons

TS

Lets see, 5.5, straight up and down line, tons of gear, a bolted belay on a nice ledge. You're right no good for a first lead with preplaced gear.

Let's see, an intimidating roof, a ledge where the follower could not see the belayer, a bolted belay that is 8 feet directly right of where you come through the roof creating a weird rope angle unless you know how to deal with such things, a popular climb that is always busy, possibly tieing up an anchor for 2 climbs due to not being familar with sharing an anchor.

You say tomato, I say tomato. The guy asked for opinions. I gave mine, you gave yours. Both are equally valid.

TS

I wouldn't say equally valid... this happened to be my first mock lead 18 or so years ago and it was choosen because it was such a good candidate for all the reasons Copp suggests. As for tieing things up... have you been in that area recently on any given weekend? It's TR central.

Jackie is intimidating for a 5.5. I didn't like that first little corner/roof thing. Strangely, I had less problems with Asphodel.

Jackie was my first lead as well as my friends. The gear is great and its nice because it actually has moves. I dont see a problem making this her first, especially since she will TR it once.

As far as tying it up- the route always has hords of people TRing it in groups. Since that is the apparent ethic, I would say go for it. Besides, they said they get there mad early.

"an intimidating roof"

Not sure which one you mean, but either way, with pre-placed gear and well-chosen sling length, both roofs could be made as safe as you could possibly want.

"a ledge where the follower could not see the belayer"

Not sure that this is true, but even if it is, why would the follower care? Concentrate on the climbing, don't watch your belayer. Besides, the follower here would have already led the pitch, so would hardly be stressing -

"a bolted belay that is 8 feet directly right of where you come through the roof creating a weird rope angle unless you know how to deal with such things"

a) the original leader pre-placing gear deals with that issue;

b) here's a radical idea: don't TR off the bolts. It's not like there's a shortage of good gear placements there.

"a popular climb that is always busy, possibly tieing up an anchor for 2 climbs"

What Journeyman said.

"due to not being familar with sharing an anchor."

See above.

I've never liked Jackie. In fact, I've made a vow to never do it again. But maybe that's just me. I put people on P2 of Jackie/Classic all the time. Bunny. Rhododendron. P2 of Dennis/Belly Roll. P1 of Dennis if they're gym climbers. P3 of Directissima even though it's supposedly run out.

Maybe because Jackie was always rated 5.5 whereas the original grade of Asphodel was 5.4 and wasn't upped to 5.5 till the 1980 guidebook. So, like all the other routes that were bumped up a grade at that time, it's on the easier side of its new grade.
Other routes that were a grade lower pre-1980:
Hawk
Shockleys
Disneland
Laurel
Limelight
Arrow
Middle Earth
Strictly From Nowhere
Comedy in Three Acts
Frustration Syndrome
...and a bunch of others.

It all sounds like a really bad idea to me,



In other words, you want to foster a false sense of security.



Is the idea to get someone confident about climbing above gear before they are competent to place it?



You have your answer right here, in your own words. She isn't ready to lead yet.



More evidence she shouldn't be leading yet.

My feeling is that climbing is dangerous and a beginning leader is in a high danger category, as is, for example, a beginning driver. Dealing with fear is a major component of the experience, so the prospective leader has to want to lead badly enough to confront the fear aspect. Artificially reducing fear can, in my opinion, only result in a beginner who is more likely to get into serious trouble, so I see nothing in leading on preplaced gear that can do anything but ultimately increase the danger for the beginner.

Mock leading can certainly be useful. However, much of the utility will be lost unless the beginner and instructor can both rappel the route simultaneously to inspect the placements and discuss their appropriateness, as well as whether a different placement would have been better.

Someone who wants to start leading trad has to be highly motivated, motivated enough to study and learn the techniques they will need, including gear placement, anchor construction, and rope management. I think Dawn's comment is worth a bump:



If she's genuinely and independently interest in starting to lead now, then I think she's the one who should be posting here asking for advice, not you.

By the way, have you thought about what you'll say if she falls on one of your preplaced pieces and it blows?

I second everything RG just said!

RG's comments got me to thinking. My other "obsession" (my wife's term) is driving a race car. Both that sport and rock climbing involve a certain level of risk and a lot of thought, training and work to manage that risk. I pretty firmly believe that no one should be doing either activity unless he or she really, really wants to. It just does not make any sense to expose yourself to that level of risk unless you have a passion for the sport.

I have been climbing with my 24 year old daughter. Although she is a stronger climber than I, she has not (yet) experesssed any desire to lead. Unless and until she does, I am not going to encourage her to lead. Even then, I likely will resist her a bit, to make sure her desire is strong. And if she never does, hey, she makes a terrific second.

Though I trashed a post I wrote very similar to RG s, I feel the same way about this as he and others. I went into a little more depth concerning his last line.

“have you thought about what you'll say if she falls on one of your pre-placed pieces and it blows?"

I’ve mentioned how much I have thought about this type of thing in several places before. All I can say is that as much as I enjoy climbing, I have yet to take my kids up anything multi-pitch due to similar concerns.

If this person really needs the pre-placed gear, then get them to hire a guide. You won't have to talk them into or out of leading, the guide will have insurance if anything happens, and you won’t have to feel completely responsible about it.

If it will help suggest it, then pay for it!

I remember some story about that blind guy who did Everest taking a bad fall when some pre-placed gear pulled.

I think there's no substitute for placing your own gear. The route should be super-duper easy for her (I don't think we know what level she follows at) and I'll admit to a preference for a fixed anchor at the top (it slightly improves my chances of living if I should slip while following), but basically I'd just pick a route and send her up it.

The only way to learn most of the things you need to know about leading is to lead. You learn to respect rope drag by doing a series of squat thrusts at the top of an easy route after hosing yourself. You learn to manage a hanging belay after dealing with the cluster-fuck of a poorly managed one. You learn route finding by crying at the top of Minty (so I've heard).

But one or two virtual leads, hey, whatever. It's how people do it now, so it's probably like letting your kid walk to the library and if he gets kidnapped it's your own fault because everyone nowadays knows it's way too dangerous to walk to the library. Just don't think she'll learn much from it. Some day it'll be her own gear and she'll be above it and the clock doesn't really start ticking until that day.

"All I can say is that as much as I enjoy climbing, I have yet to take my kids up anything multi-pitch due to similar concerns.

If this person really needs the pre-placed gear, then get them to hire a guide. You won't have to talk them into or out of leading, the guide will have insurance if anything happens, and you won’t have to feel completely responsible about it."

I respect the intent, but I have to disagree with this one. First, if you don't have as much (or more) confidence in your own gear as in that placed by a guide you don't know, you might want to reconsider whether you should be leading for yourself as well. After all, how will your (wife, kids, girlfriend, etc.) feel if you fall and the piece blows while they're belaying you?

Second, can you really subcontract out your own feelings of responsibility that easily? That is, if the guide places gear instead of you and something goes wrong, aren't you going to feel like maybe that wasn't such a good idea?

And finally, although I don't know for a fact, I suspect that most guides would want no part of this project. If their gear blows, it's going to be with them on the lead, not your wife/girlfriend, etc. (And if they don't feel that way, I'm sure their insurance companies do).

I am surprised how many AMGA rock climbing instructors we have on this site. Now everyone is entitles to their opinions but they mean jack sh*t(mine included). Learning by doing I am all for. NOTHING teaches like experience. The simple fact is that Jeff is responsible for how he teaches. I am sure many of you have taken new climbers under your wing and have the experience teaching numerous people to hang it out above the gear that it qualifies you to speak up when you think something could be done differently...Just don’t be offended if they tell you to mind your own business. Just because you were taught a certain way doesn’t mean it was the only way or even the correct way for that matter.

Learn by doing....she will know when it is time...bla bla bla. If I was to bring a brandy new person to the cliffs and showed them how to belay with doubles how many of you would cast off on a lead with that new belayer and only that new belayer holding you? Not many I’d bet. So much for learning by doing. Eh? Imagine if they instructed parachuting like that. Just throw them out of the fuggin plane and scream down to them learn by doing!

If a person teaching another to do something as incredibly dangerous as trad climbing and decides they need an extra step what the hell is the big deal? A wise instructor will recognize what the student needs and lead them accordingly. Incremental teaching is an age old doctrine. Lets face it gang, far better to take baby steps than to find out your student wasn’t ready by a carry out on a backboard.

CLimer

Again, I think dalguard has nailed it. Spoken like the true tradgirl.

In an attempt not to be only negative, and assuming that the prospective leader in question really wants to lead trad and isn't being either coaxed or deluded into it, here are a few additional thoughts on the process.

1. Good modeling.

(a) The experienced person should try to model good leading, anchoring, belaying, and rope-management practices, including verbalizing what they are thinking and why they are doing things. This means, perhaps unobviously, that the experienced person should strive to model how a beginning leader ought to lead the pitch in question. A 5.12 leader that places one piece in 100 feet on a 5.4 pitch isn't going to help a beginning leader learn anything.

(b) The team should do climbs that the experienced leader knows nothing about. The behavior of a leader on a totally unfamiliar climb is quite different from their behavior on something they've already done, and it is the former behavior that the inexperienced person needs to learn about. You can get really distorted ideas about what competent leading looks like if you only follow a leader up climbs that are familiar.

(c) Encourage a lot of questioning by the novice, who shouldn't take anything for granted and should always be asking, "why did you do this, why not that?"

(d) A leader has to make sure their second is properly protected; it's not just about the leader's safety. In fact, I think the second's safety is more important than the leader's, in the sense that the leader is making choices for themselves but the second doesn't have a say in the level of risk the leader has created for them.

(e) Gear not only has to go in, it has to come out (but not before it is supposed to!), and the prospective leader has to think about this too. Deeper is rarely better.

(f) Rope drag has to be managed. In addition to thinking about it ahead of time, one of the marks of a competent leader is the ability, at least in some cases, to back down a move or two and rearrange something that the leader realizes after the fact will cause drag.

(g) Zippering. In my experience, zippering (lifting from bottom up) is the most common error made by experienced climbers. The novice leader needs to think about preventive strategies from day one. The experienced leader should remember to explain what they are doing to forestall this catastrophe, or what they should have done in retrospect if some of their nuts lift.

2. Downclimbing. Sooner or later, a leader will have to downclimb. It shouldn't be the first time they ever tried this. After climbing up a pitch, try to downclimb it. But also, while seconding, adopt a "no-falls" mentality and downclimb rather than going for moves.

Team downclimbing is an interesting exercise. The first person down places protection for the second person down (the pro has to be placed after tricky moves, not before, of course). The willingness of the experienced person to engage in this exercise is a very good measure of their real estimate of the novice's gear skills. If you don't trust someone to protect you properly on a downclimb, should you be sending them up on leads of their own?

3. Ground school.

I've watched bits of several "ground schools" from afar, and all I've ever seen is the instructor doing all the placing and explaining. Of course this is important, but the learner also has to be marched up to the rock and tasked with making an anchor or placing protection while the instructor bites their lip and keeps quiet until the process is completed.

4. Aid climbing.

(a) The forgotten discipline. With top-rope belay, aid pitches, descend, and then follow with aid. A beginning leader (well, or course, any leader) needs to be competent at improvised aid, but for aid climbing practice I'd use a pair of etriers and a pair of daisy's. Bounce test every placement. Beware of getting hit in the face by the ones that fail.

(b) Devote a little bit of time to down-aiding with improvised gear. This might be essential if you can't pull the crux and can't aid up it.

4. Mock leading.

Personally, I'm not a fan. Guides invented this in order to be able to teach climbers to lead without exposing themselves to the attendant liability. As I mentioned before, there may be some benefit if novice and instructor rap the pitch together to examine and discuss placements, otherwise it isn't going to be worth all that much. The time would be better spend aiding.

5. Redundance.

The only person I've heard of who actually tested the placements he made is John Stannard. This means, somewhat shockingly if you think about it, that most of us don't know how good our gear really is. Redundance is our only bulwark against this ignorance, and whatever decisions an experienced climber makes, the beginning leader's safety lies in not betting the farm on a single piece. Of course, this is just a platitude---redundance isn't always practical or achievable, and you can't use up all your gear in the first 30 feet. Such uncertainties notwithstanding, the novice needs to learn to think about redundancy and use it in a practically effective way.

I do have confidence in my gear and that is exactly why I trust my evaluation of my trad pro more than my evaluation of sport bolts. But that not really the issue here.

1) With how little I actually climb I would hope most guides would have better judgment off their pro than me!
2) The guide will have insurance for their clients. Do you have insurance of any type? Then I’m not going to listen to the argument you do not expect expect to use it or need it.



No I can’t subcontract my feelings of responsibility that easily, but things do go wrong, and it’s not even necessarily some ones fault. As an example it is standard practice for doctors, surgeons, and anesthesiologists etc. not to participate in surgery of one of their family members.



I never recommended that a guide take part “in this project”. I suggested that if someone wants you to help them lead, but you do not feel they are ready, then I advised suggesting to them that they let a guide help them with their decision. Besides the fact that the guide might be a better judge, and better teacher, they will certainly be less personally involved and more likely to have their advice followed.

Sorry for the semi off topic post. RG's and DA's posts are better than mine anyway.