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#31806 - 08/01/07 07:53 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: nerdom]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
If you fall off the opening moves of the second pitch (which are harder if short) you could certainly hit the ledge on rope stretch. Breaking a leg is just bad luck.

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#31823 - 08/02/07 02:29 AM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: dalguard]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I've seen a number of injuries from rope stretch on opening moves. I don't see why the constant quest for the thinnest rope possible, especially at an area like the gunks with so many ledges and trees to fall into. Overhanging cave routes might be a different matter, but I'm sticking to the thick stuff for that reason.

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#31825 - 08/02/07 04:16 AM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: chip]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: chip
I've seen a number of injuries from rope stretch on opening moves. I don't see why the constant quest for the thinnest rope possible, especially at an area like the gunks with so many ledges and trees to fall into.

Couple that with the fascination of doing 2 or 3 pitch routes in a single pitch (simply 'cause some folks have an absurdly long 70m ropte) and you get seconds hitting the ground. Some on this forum have even idiotically said they wouldn't do that if they thought their follower would fall...as if they could predict such a thing.
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#31831 - 08/02/07 12:03 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: chip]
Terrie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
 Originally Posted By: chip
.....why the constant quest for the thinnest rope possible, especially at.....



Consumer society/gotta-keep-up Jonesing mentality. Rope choice won't make a bit of difference for most people; same goes for the lighter biner, thinner cord, smaller draw. But don't it make you feel good to pull that skinny snake outa the bag and hear yer neighbor walking by stop and go "mmmmm...."
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#31833 - 08/02/07 01:15 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: MarcC]
nerdom Offline
Pooh-Bah *

Registered: 09/07/01
Posts: 2483
Loc: Davis Sq., MA
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: chip
I've seen a number of injuries from rope stretch on opening moves. I don't see why the constant quest for the thinnest rope possible, especially at an area like the gunks with so many ledges and trees to fall into.

Couple that with the fascination of doing 2 or 3 pitch routes in a single pitch (simply 'cause some folks have an absurdly long 70m ropte) and you get seconds hitting the ground. Some on this forum have even idiotically said they wouldn't do that if they thought their follower would fall...as if they could predict such a thing.


haha! yeah, I friend of mine hosed me one time on Maria Direct many years ago. I'd actually climbed the damn thing before with no problems, but on this day I just didn't have it. He had led the pitch all the way to the GT ledge, instead of to the short P1 sling nest anchor. Well, I came off at the crux, fell nearly all the way to the ground, and had to repeat all the opening moves again. Fell again, and again, and again . . . by the third or fourth time, I was absolutely smoked and was so frustrated (since I'd climbed the damn thing before without incident!), that I just untied, handed the rope to a friend, and proceeded post-haste to the Otter to drown my shame!

But P2 of Arrow (where I'm assuming the previously mentioned fall occurred) is not that long. What is it, maybe 80 feet? I just gotta figure a tight belay keeps all but the heaviest climbers off the ledge on the moves through the little hang. But I'm wrong as often as not, so who knows?

Anyway, sorry to hear about it, and hope the climber recovers quickly; and if she's a beginner, that this incident doesn't dampen her enthusiasm for climbing.
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#31840 - 08/02/07 01:51 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: nerdom]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
She wasn't necessarily at the overhang. For short people, the first few moves off the ledge are hard.

Marc, if we do one of those routes together and you don't want me to lead it in one pitch, I promise I won't. Running pitches together is a team decision made because both partners enjoy a long stretch of relatively easy climbing.

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#31848 - 08/02/07 02:33 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: dalguard]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
Running pitches together is a team decision...

It should be, but I've seen many instances where it isn't, and, unfortunately, many of those have been on routes where the crux is close to the ground. Drunkard's, Criss, Criss Cross, and the afore mentioned Maria Direct all come to mind, among others. Drunkard's once resulted in a broken ankle for the follower of the party climbing next to us.
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#31850 - 08/02/07 03:02 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: MarcC]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
Running pitches together is a team decision...

It should be, but I've seen many instances where it isn't, and, unfortunately, many of those have been on routes where the crux is close to the ground. Drunkard's, Criss, Criss Cross, and the afore mentioned Maria Direct all come to mind, among others. Drunkard's once resulted in a broken ankle for the follower of the party climbing next to us.


People need to be more selective about who they'll climb with. I will generally ask my partner not to link pitches if I'm concerned about the opening moves of a route and if they didn't care about my concerns then that'll be the end of that day. That said, some new climbers wouldn't yet know enough to be able to evaluate that risk.

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#31851 - 08/02/07 03:47 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: learningtolead]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
Typically (and Drunkard's is a perfect example) climbing both pitches in one shot exposes the second to much the same risk as the leader faces leading the first pitch: the first 10 or more feet are essentially unprotected.
This leads to a fairly reliable rule: don't run two pitches together on anything your second wouldn't be perfectly comfortable leading (or soloing) the first 10 or more feet of.
Of course, in rare instances (e.g., pendulum falls into a rock on a route that traverses sharply to one side), the second may face an even greater risk than the leader, so this rule is no substitute for good judgment.

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#31852 - 08/02/07 03:50 PM Re: Weekend Accident Report... [Re: learningtolead]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2952
Loc: LI, NY
cant you do arrow in a big single pitch?
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