Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 8 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
#33083 - 09/12/07 11:06 PM Commentary upon bin Laden's message
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5972
Loc: 212 land
(See this for that message.)

Just as the pure Christianity of the New Testament was gradually corrupted by those who followed (St. Augustine’s thesis of the Just War being a notorious example) “radical” Moslems distort the Koranic verses justifying fighting in defense to justify terrorist attacks on non-enemies. Of the so-called Abrahamic religions, Islam is unique in being based on a book which has a claim of infallibility within it.
It is my belief, perhaps naïve, that if believers were to read that book, in the original or in translation, and think for themselves about the meaning of the verses, there would be far less trouble in the Islamic world.
Observers have noted that honor is an extremely sore point in the Near and Middle East and that its men are willing to kill or be killed over issues of honor. This, of course, afflicts many others as well, including nominal Christians. Those who are skilled at stirring this sentiment, assigning blame to foreign nations for loss of honor and can distort Koranic or Biblical verse to justify suicidal revenge can find all too many adherents.
_________________________

Top
#33093 - 09/13/07 11:55 PM Re: Commentary upon bin Laden's message [Re: oenophore]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
I totally agree with your observations about the way people get manipulated by charismatic leaders. History does indeed show countless examples of people of all different nations driven to unimaginable violence against their fellow man. One thing I believe for certain is that the use of religion as a ideological doctrine to “inspire” the masses is, in certain societies, extremely powerful. The one thing that escapes most peoples minds is that “religion” or beliefs are almost never the reason that human beings are really waging wars. The true battle is always over 1 thing...POWER. Some might argue it is money but money as a world commodity is a relatively new thing. Dominance over other human beings (power) is what the game is always about.

Swaying people is as easy to do as finding an avenue to convey your “message”...finding someone to blame...Then leading the weak minded to the fight.

Just some recent examples.....The Islamic nutties say they wage war for the Koran. They blame the Jews and the Americans for their shitty lot in life and recruit the young, impressionable zealots into doing the dirty work. Same as the Nazis. The Nazis waged a war for “racial purity” and also blamed the Jews(Jews get blamed a lot for their troubles). Hundreds of thousands of Japanese died on Pacific islands for the emperor and a twisted belief that losing in battle was the most shameful thing that could befall them, indoctrinated into this belief system at a very early age, just like the Islamic penisheads and Nazis did it. We too are guilty of the same type of thing as we too are as human as the rest. We use terms like freedom, equality and self rule but in the end it is really the same. We just like the others want to be the top dog, the big cheese, the one who tells everybody else what the rules are. Thats what wars are really fought over. Has it not been like this since the beginning of time?

In a personal side of the story, I have a young cousin, whom the whole family loves dearly,that is entering his 3 tour in the middle east. He first went to Iraq as a wide eyed 18 year old. Highschool graduation to basic training to Iraq. He turns 21 in Nov and might just turn 22 there also. First 2 tours he volunteered for and this third one they told him he had to go. He always dreamed of flying jets but his grades sucked and so does his eyes so he is SOL. He does security, you know, checking under cars for bombs, point machine guns at old people coming through check points and making sure the terrorist mortar teams can’t get too close to the airfields. Great adventure for a young man with balls of steel who was raised in a very patriotic family who’s men have fought in every war for this country since they moved here from the old country. He too was indoctrinated by stories of our grandfather who fought the Nazis in his tank and lost a piece of his leg doing it. Taught all about the values of freedom and all the other crap our country has to offer. I often wonder how really different he is from the warriors he faces off against. Not too much I guess. I’ll bet their grandfathers fought in battles too. They fight for what they believe.

Osama is just the latest pudsucker in a long long line. I am sure that any reasonable person who looks at the way his followers literaly worship and blindly follow him can see what a load of crapola it is. That does not however make them any less dangerous. If anything it makes them more so.

Climer

Top
#33094 - 09/14/07 03:02 PM Re: Commentary upon bin Laden's message [Re: Climer]
Fraser Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 700
Loc: New Canaan, CT
Climer - Well said and I hope your cousin makes out okay.

I think you're close but I disagree that the motivation behind everything is power. I am an economic determinist myself - everything is driven by money. They aren't that different. We're fighting for oil and a lifestyle (not necessarily a way of life).

I just finished reading Travels with Herodotus. It is about a polish journalist who sees a lot of parallels with ancient history in our modern world. The history of the world as you say is a history of wars and violence. It sounded even more so in ancient history. People are always fighting about something. The fact that Christians fought each other and now Muslims are fighting proves your point but also shows the struggle for money and power.

Another book I read was Acts of Faith by Philip Caputo. Interesting fictionalized account of Sudan and how people of all sides are using religion for their own purposes in battle. Nothing new there but a bit ironic.

The solution in my mind is an economic one - man is essentially greedy. Everyone must feel like they have a chance to make money. This is what caused the Berlin Wall to crumble and the Troubles to be resolved. Economic freedom is the key. Suicide bombers are bred out of despair - what have they got to lose. We need to figure out a way to give them a taste of economic freedom.

Top
#33095 - 09/14/07 04:17 PM Re: Commentary upon bin Laden's message [Re: Fraser]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
So I was too busy write this morning. So what do I find now at lunch? Fraser beat me to it!
I agree!

 Quote:
I disagree that the motivation behind everything is power. I am an economic determinist myself - everything is driven by money.

And this in particular is well said:

 Quote:
The solution in my mind is an economic one - man is essentially greedy. Everyone must feel like they have a chance to make money.

Top
#33097 - 09/14/07 06:47 PM Re: Commentary upon bin Laden's message [Re: Fraser]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5972
Loc: 212 land
Suicide bombers are bred out of despair - what have they got to lose. We need to figure out a way to give them a taste of economic freedom.

Many if not most suicidal/homicidal zealots were not destitute. As I noted in my first post here, the issue is one of honor. And of course, it helps to be assured of a fine afterlife.
_________________________

Top
#33099 - 09/15/07 12:00 AM Re: Commentary upon bin Laden's message [Re: oenophore]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Originally Posted By: oenophore
Many if not most suicidal/homicidal zealots were not destitute. As I noted in my first post here,


Yes you did it it is a good point. Anyway thanks! At least now where I agreed with Fraser I was shown to be wrong!


Edited by mworking (09/15/07 12:00 AM)

Top
#33100 - 09/15/07 12:32 AM Re: Commentary upon bin Laden's message [Re: mworking]
Climer Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 348
Money is power...power is money. As an American I can’t dispute that. Remember though that money, currency, cold hard dollars is quite different than real power. There are many wealthy countries in the middle east. None are all that powerful....yet. The one and only ace in the hole that some middle eastern countries have is oil which in turn can produce wealth/money which in turn can buy power. Is Iran all that powerful? No, not yet, even though they sit on a ocean of oil. Is Kuwait powerful? Saudi?. Now think of the real power in the middle east...Israel. What makes them different? They are a tiny country in the middle of the shitstorm and no one has the balls to really wack em, not that countries haven’t tried. You would truly have to kill every man woman and child in Israel to have it cease to exist. Not that is power. That kind of thing can not be bought at any price. They are the true power in the middle east...God bless the powers that be that possessed the genius and power necessary to create the Nation of Israel where they did. Had it not been for them the world would in my opinion, be a totally different place.

Even thought there are very wealthy countries, that cold hard cash is not shared with the common folk. It is to some very small degree put into keeping the lights on and the roads opened but all in all it is not reinvested in the middle eastern countries economies. Some countries even use the wealth to maintain the status quo. It takes money to run all those Islamic schools and fund terrorism and furnish the palaces with gold toilets and jem encrusted furniture let alone build bunkers to house your top secret nuclear bomb factory. Money can buy all those things but it can’t buy you closer to the head of the table, the top of the ladder, into the realm of the superpower. For that you do indeed need money but more importantly you need raw, pure unadulterated power. Sway, not only over your neighbors, but on a world wide scale. That is what we and all the others are really killing each other over.

There is one very bad thing to being the top of the food chain though. There is only one place to go and that is down. Even the mighty United States of America is vulnerable in some ways. Remember that unless we are the ones to dictate what happens in the middle east, it will be someone else who has their own interests in mind....I highly doubt that we would like it. So they teach their kids to hate us and send their young warriors into crowded night clubs to blow everything up. They do it the way is has always been done (and will always be done) by mindfuking those who they would send to fight for their cause.

Wars suck...big time. I wish there was a way human being could get by without them. So many things and so much change can come from them tough that without them, and I hate to admit this, real change would just not happen all that much. History does indeed show time and time again that wars are just a plain dirty fact of our existance on this rock. Anti-war or thinking it is possible is pure fantasy. Be thankful we live here...from what I have heard first hand about the middle east, is bites the big one.

CLimer


Edited by Climer (09/15/07 12:46 AM)
Edit Reason: cause i felt like it

Top


Moderator:  webmaster 
Sponsored