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#33109 - 09/15/07 07:31 PM Youngest climber on High E?
gunks Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/26/01
Posts: 84
Loc: Rosendale, NY
I took my friend's 6-year old daughter up High E yesterday. She cruised it.

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#33116 - 09/16/07 12:53 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Chooch Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 1184
Loc: South East PA
I dont believe my 5 or 7 year old could do it.
Kudos to her.
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#33120 - 09/16/07 06:40 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Yawn. Who really cares other than the parents?
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#33122 - 09/16/07 12:59 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: MarcC]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Yawn. Who really cares other than the parents?

I won't say I care; nevertheless I find it interesting and postworthy.
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#33123 - 09/16/07 05:15 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Jannette Offline

Cliffmama
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 2224
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Excellent! Congrats to her!
But I know she's not the youngest ever to climb High E. A friend of mine (who probably doesn't read gunks.com regularly) had his daughter follow him up High E when she was six as well. She led her first trad climb when she was 11.

Jannette

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#33130 - 09/17/07 01:40 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: MarcC]
Arms Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1763
Loc: WV, near NRG and Seneca
I agree. I don't really care what other peoples kids are doing. Why do they think others do? Even less interesting are post about pets.
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Arms

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#33133 - 09/17/07 11:52 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Arms]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
So don't read it then. The post title was a pretty good indicator of the contents.

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#33135 - 09/17/07 01:02 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Excellent!!
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#33137 - 09/17/07 01:39 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: d-elvis]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
yea quit being such a party pooper.
next time you spray we're gonna shit all over you.
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#33138 - 09/17/07 03:39 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: empicard]
jonny Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 1
excellent! wish i could have been exposed at such a young age. did she belay? a while back, my friend took his son (around 7 y/o) on a ro climb on stately pleasure dome. his son "belayed" and was frightened.

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#33141 - 09/17/07 04:13 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Quote:
Yawn. Who really cares other than the parents?


To the second reply:
How can you know that you’re kids are superior if ya don’t keep up with what the others are doing?

To the OP:
Did I see you leaving a bike heading up to Jean? (I think I said Hi there.)

Wow, excellent, wish my wife and kids would climb with me. It sure helps to have two to cope and I’d love it if any of them could get up HE. Hope you got pictures, though it sounds as if you might have other opportunities.

Thanks for posting.


Edited by mworking (09/17/07 06:47 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity

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#33145 - 09/17/07 05:58 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: MarcC]
Jeff Holt Offline
addict

Registered: 12/27/99
Posts: 611
Loc: Southern NJ
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
Yawn. Who really cares other than the parents?


+1
Jeff

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#33158 - 09/18/07 04:39 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Jeff Holt]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: Jeff Holt
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
Yawn. Who really cares other than the parents?


+1
Jeff


Does anyone care about a 6 year old climbing a multi pitch route with someone other than their parents? That is quite a bit of responsiblity taken on by the leader who is not the childs parent! I know I would not let my daughter climb with anyone other than myself regardless of that climbers ability level or experience(including a guide) until she was much older.

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#33159 - 09/18/07 04:50 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Coppertone]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Assuming you are referring to this thread, I believe that a parent was there. Perhaps we’ll here from the OP. But perhaps your comment is a lead in to this thread which I took / take as a troll.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/foru...;guest=21244131

Added: Actually I’d like to hear the details of how this was handled, where the adults were, the availability of assistance (not so much whether it was needed) etc.


Edited by mworking (09/18/07 04:57 PM)

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#33160 - 09/18/07 05:22 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I'm interested. That is a very intimidating climb for a beginner. Some kids don't think twice while others get caught up in drama when climbing, only to often have different reactions at other times. Good on you to have such a nice experience together.

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#33163 - 09/19/07 12:06 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
 Originally Posted By: gunks
I took my friend's 6-year old daughter up High E yesterday. She cruised it.

Yes, but did she have fun?

IBBY!
Dizz
_________________________
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#33165 - 09/19/07 12:19 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
You should see this six year old girl who does the East Face traverse on Rat Rock in Central Park--especially with all these burly boulderers looking on with a mixture of amusement and astonishment. Crikey!

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#33166 - 09/19/07 01:18 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Daniel]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Little Japanese girl?
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#33168 - 09/19/07 03:24 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
Yup, that's her. She's got a lot of technique, plus a high strength to weight ratio (very low denominator).

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#33174 - 09/19/07 05:15 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
I was not trolling. I would never let my daughter go on a climb with someone other than myself or my wife. Being responsible for yourself on a climb is large enough responsibilty in itself let alone being responsible for someone elses child. I am not talking about in a gym or a single pitch toprope, but climb a multipitch route has many facets to it that would challenge a 6 year old aside from the climbing and present additional responsibilities on the leader. If the parents we there on the climb that is a different story. By maybe it is just me, but taking someone elses kid on a multipitch climb without a parent being on the climb is a big deal. I think that the achievement for the little girl is fantastic, but not something I would do with someone elses kid and not something I would allow my kid to do.

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#33177 - 09/19/07 07:07 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Coppertone]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I'm probably gonna get fried for this, but I have many reservations about taking young children up traditional climbs. People pretend trad climbing is totally safe "when done properly," but I don't believe this to be true. There is always some risk, and climbers accept this and presumably even welcome it as a source of spice.

I think it is fine for adults to choose to take voluntary risks, but I'm uncomfortable when people expose young children to these risks, children who are in no way capable of making an informed decision about risk themselves. This means that I agree with Coppertone, but don't feel much better about parents taking their own kids up multipitch trad climbs.

As a matter of full disclosure, I have to admit to having taken my daughter up a bunch of climbs when she was a pre-teen. Everything went fine and she had a good time, but I think, from a moral standpoint, that it was a mistake.

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#33179 - 09/19/07 07:53 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: rg@ofmc]
ShakesALot Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 257
Loc: NJ

Does this mean that you wouldn't take them for a non-essential car ride either? To a foreign country, "the subway", etc...?

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#33180 - 09/19/07 08:41 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: rg@ofmc]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Perhaps RG. But if so, then it is the type of moral mistake that parents make all the time.

Is climbing (if handed extremely well as I am betting this case was) really any different than allowing kids to ride bicycles, skateboards, play sports, ride in automobiles (when not absolutely necessary) or go on rides at an amusement park? I say no.

Again I’m betting that a parent was present and the adults present were very comfortable on high E, just as they were getting to the Preserve, and handled this very, very well.

Again, I feel that if this was a moral mistake, then it the same as other as many of us make all the time.

(Beaten to this but my 0.02 anyway)

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#33181 - 09/19/07 09:05 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
A multi pitch climb is far more involved then a kid riding his bike in the neighborhood or going for an unnecessary car ride. On a multipitch climb there is climbing, belaying, change overs, gear removal, exposure, rockfall, fear, weather and many other aspects that would separate this from other activities. My point was simply that this not a responsiblity that should be on anyone other than the parent and there is allot more going on then a simple TR or gym climb. There is just so many things that could go wrong and 6 year old is in no position to either make decisions or take any decisive action should there be a problem. I stand by my opinion and agree with Rich on this one.

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#33182 - 09/19/07 11:46 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Coppertone]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Does this mean that you wouldn't take them for a non-essential car ride either? To a foreign country, "the subway", etc...?

Oh phooey, the slippery slope fallacy.

Some risks are more optional than others, some risks are much smaller than others, and some activities are of more predictable benefit than others. I've given a good part of nearly 50 years to climbing, but I don't think it qualifies on any of those grounds. Coppertone explains it pretty well, there is little I could add to his observations.

Perhaps RG. But if so, then it is the type of moral mistake that parents make all the time.

All the time? Hmmm, perhaps that is worth a few moments of parental reflection. And is it any better to make this mistake, if that's what it is, if you are in the company of many others?

Let's just say a party at the top drops a rock on the kid and kills him or her. How do we explain that to ourselves? Is that really no different, in terms of the choices made, than getting killed in a car ride to an amusement park?

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#33183 - 09/20/07 12:07 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
chazman Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 944
 Originally Posted By: mworking
Is climbing (if handed extremely well as I am betting this case was) really any different than allowing kids to ride bicycles, skateboards, play sports, ride in automobiles (when not absolutely necessary) or go on rides at an amusement park? I say no.

So when your child rides a bike, skates or plays a sport they may find themselves 80 feet away, alone, out of range of verbal communications and dangling from a rope?

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#33185 - 09/20/07 12:28 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: chazman]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I'm afraid I've suggested that this is some sort of moral failing, which is not my point, and it is dragging the discussion in a direction I'm not sure I really want to argue.

My point is that many people think climbing is safer than it is.

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#33187 - 09/20/07 03:46 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: rg@ofmc]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Quote:
There is just so many things that could go wrong and 6 year old is in no position to either make decisions or take any decisive action should there be a problem.


With this I fully agree.

 Quote:
My point is that many people think climbing is safer than it is.


and this too.

My point is that I bet this board has misjudged this "event".

 Quote:
80 feet away, alone, out of range of verbal communications and dangling from a rope?


I doubt any of the above occured. Not that I am about to do it, but it would not if I took a six year old up a multipitch climb. What led anyone here to beleive that there was not a parent right there with the kid the whole time and whole way - unless the kid was that good and already that experienced - one of the exceptions.

Guess there isn't much point in discussing this further unless we hear from the OP his freinds or other witnesses.


Edited by mworking (09/20/07 03:48 AM)

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#33189 - 09/20/07 06:06 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
Children don't have any business being anywhere around rock climbing. So the real question is, what constitutes a child? I'm not a parent (we forgot to have kids) and I don't like children, so it's quite simple in my case - anyone younger than about 18 or so is suspect and has a lot to prove. "Climbing" with a 6 yr old - get real: you're soloing - is just idiotic on so many levels.
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#33191 - 09/20/07 12:01 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: MarcC]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2954
Loc: LI, NY
youre a tool.
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tOOthless

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

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#33193 - 09/20/07 12:07 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: MarcC]
rime Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 14
To me it seems like there are two issues regarding kids climbing - what type of climbing experience are they best fit for (physically and emotionally) and how can they be provided the experience that is appropriate for them in the safest way possible. Sorry MarcC, waiting until they are 18 to get them involved in adventurous/risky pursuits is ridiculous.

I do agree with your statement that climbing alone with a 6-year old is essentially soloing though. Speaking from personal experience, I think 6 is pretty young to do more than easy scrambling with an adult spotting and easy topropes (with a chest harness and not too high off the ground away from grown-ups). I think that a lot of climbers feel some kind of ego boost, like it is a reflection on themselves somehow, when their kids (or kids climbing with them) do well. I'm with Dizzy - the OP was psyched the kid made it but didn't mention anything about whether it was a great day - how do you describe the experience? "I took a 6-year old on High E and she cruised it!" or "I took a 6-year old on High E and she loved it!"

Given that, there certainly may be some 6-year olds who are competent enough to handle a wider range of climbing situations than scrambling/top-roping. Given the number of times I've seen parents belaying sobbing kids 10 feet off the ground, I would hope the realization that a 6-year old is "ready" for tougher climbing would be reached in a progressive way, not by throwing them into the situation without working up to it. To my mind, that would mean quite a bit of climbing for a 6-year old to have under their belt. Otherwise why risk the alternative - that they will have a miserable time and absolutely hate it.

Regarding keeping kids as safe as possible, my son is 10 1/2 and I was contemplating whether he and I could do a route together. Even if he was capable of belaying (not), my thoughts were that everything would have to go perfectly smoothly in order for him to really be safe and feel comfortable in the situation - i.e., I could NOT fall, no gear retrieval issues or wasps, possible pendulums, etc. You really can't predict that all those conditions will be met - even on an super-easy route you could solo, something could happen to you (going unconscious for whatever reason...hey, it COULD happen!, rock fall, injury) and then your child would be stuck there at a belay yelling for help and you would be a real idiot for getting the two of you in that situation. I have also found from top-roping that the greater the distance between you and a climbing child, the greater the difficulty in really communicating with them - it is harder for them to focus on what you are telling them because they are distracted by the exposure, rope, moves at hand, their fear, etc. So in any situation where you have to give them directions, it will be more difficult and you can't necessarily rely on their on-the-ground maturity.

My son has done a multi-pitch climb on a slab route where there were no issues with visibility/hearing. There were two adults and my son was in the middle, so if anything "happened" he would have had an adult with him or close by who was not occupied with leading or belaying. He loved it - it was kind of scary for him but it was also exciting and fun, and a real accomplishment for him that gave him a sense of strength and capability that is a good thing for someone working through being 10 1/2. I wouldn't want to save those kinds of things until he is 18.

Regarding injury, even death, well, that is a constant thought and balancing act. Should I let him walk down our long drive from the school bus alone or might someone scoop him up and I never see him again? Should I let him play a team sport when a kid in our area recently got hit in the head with a fast ball and got killed? Climbing holds the risk of injury and death for all climbers. Whether/how we face that as parents for our children is a difficult decision and requires constant reality/sanity checks. I guess in a way the OP sparked some of that for everyone participating here.

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#33196 - 09/20/07 12:34 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: MarcC]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
I'm not a parent (we forgot to have kids) and I don't like children,


Well its a good thing for you your parents liked kids...

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#33197 - 09/20/07 12:44 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Smike]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
Well said rime.

To me there is one difference between climbing outside with their parents and other sports. It that fatal and other mistakes are far more likely to be the parents fault.

That has been an issue for me, and I have not taken my 13yr old daughter on a muti-pitch climb. She is not an experienced climber though and I have not wanted to ask a trusted partner to devote the time to belay for us. Given the right circumstances I would climb with her sometime,


Edited by mworking (09/20/07 01:28 PM)

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#33198 - 09/20/07 12:55 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Yeah but no one has asked the really important question. Did you take the kid out to Bacchus that night and get them shitfaced?? If you did then you'd be a bad parent/guardian. Other than that...who gives a flying rat's ass what these people think.

RR

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#33204 - 09/20/07 01:44 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: RangerRob]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
The things I was doing when I was 13. Belaying would have been the least of your worries.

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#33211 - 09/20/07 02:58 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: dalguard]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
I think RG is right to argue that climbing may be less safe than people think it is, but I would support the right of every parent to make the decision as to whether or not he or she wanted to accept that risk for his or her child, as opposed to having the group or community make that decision. Parents make similar decisions as to when their kids are ready to SCUBA dive, ski race, etc., and that's as it should be.

And I recognize -- and accept -- that some parents are going to make a bad decision under those circumstances. Which is why I think Coppertone's point is ultimately the most important: when things do go wrong, god forbid it should be someone other than the parent on the other end of the rope. It will only make a terrible situation much worse.

All that aside, it's not clear how the High E trip was organized. A kid in the middle, with an adult above and below, is one thing; a kid as sole follower is quite another. Even apart from belay issues, gear removal, etc., High E is one of the most difficult climbs for the leader to communicate with the follower: the overhang seems to block the sound, so people on the ground can hear the leader, but the people on the ledge can't. It's also a notoriously intimidating and committing move (although probably much easier, in some ways, for small people).
It would be a very bad idea to have the child alone on that ledge following someone else.

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#33215 - 09/20/07 05:51 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: retr2327]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Nice points, rime. I was talking strictly about taking young children on multipitch trad climbs, and I didn't even begin to get into the question of whether or not they actually like the experience. Anyone who has spent any time in popular rock-climbing areas has seen parents pushing kids to do things the kids have no interest in and imposing adult values of accomplishment on what ought to be childhood endeavors, but of course one can find that at any children's sporting event.

As for retr2327's reference to parental rights, that is another slippery slope I'd rather not start down and never meant to invoke. I just think folks ought to think twice about whether it is "right" to take their young child on a multipitch outing---it is very far from a no-brainer in my opinion, no matter how talented the little tyke may be in the climbing gym, and the decision shouldn't be made casually.

Switching hats and joining the advocates for a moment (after all, I've already confessed to taking my daughter climbing when she was young) I still think a climb like High E is among the worst choices one could make. Of course, one has to have adults above and below the kid, but on High E the climber is still very isolated in mid-pitch, with very poor communication with belayer and supporter. The only set-up I'd consider adequate would be the two-follower system often used by parties of 3 climbing with double ropes, so that an adult climber, also belayed from above, could be climbing in close proximity to the child. (This may be what the party in question actually did, my comment here is a general one an is not necessarily aimed at the OP, who has provided no details of how they worked things out.)

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#33222 - 09/20/07 08:33 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: rg@ofmc]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
The only set-up I'd consider adequate would be the two-follower system often used by parties of 3 climbing with double ropes, so that an adult climber, also belayed from above, could be climbing in close proximity to the child.


Ditto that as the lead belay ability of any six year old would seem questionable. A second adult along to belay the leader and then accompany the youngster when climbing seems like a good setup.

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#33226 - 09/20/07 10:55 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: dalguard]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
The things I was doing when I was 13. Belaying would have been the least of your worries.

That has to be one of the funniest statements ever written here...and, so true.

Even at 13 (thanks to some rather unpleasant social exposures), the highest thing I wanted to climb was a bar stool.


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#33230 - 09/21/07 02:30 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: dalguard]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
The things I was doing when I was 13. Belaying would have been the least of your worries.


Things have changed since then and kids are generally far more dependent on their parents than when we were kids. I'm pretty sure my family very little problems today (to long to write about now). But, I predict some mighty dark storm clouds will blow over next year when she changes schools.

I do remember (most) all the things my younger sister did, and I'm not naive.

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#33235 - 09/21/07 03:54 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
 Quote:
Things have changed since then and kids are generally far more dependent on their parents than when we were kids.
You say that like it's a good thing.

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#33239 - 09/21/07 12:44 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: dalguard]
fallenglass Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 276
Loc: cornwall
it is amazing that we survive childhood -- when i think of the stuff my brother and i did when our parents weren't looking, i'm surpised that it didn't result in more trips to the emergency room. our species probably wouldn't have survived if children didn't do a little risky play.

i'll occasionally look out the window into the woods and see my kids balancing accross a rotten log over the muddy creek and think 'oh no what if they fall and crack their skull open? or skewer themselves on sharp sticks!' my second thought is, 'man that looks like fun!'

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#33240 - 09/21/07 12:45 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: dalguard]
museumdork Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 110
Loc: new paltz
for what it's worth, that day we were coming off Proctoscope when Team High E strolled by. There were at least two adults in addition to the six-year old. This suggests (but of course does not prove) she was the middle climber.

Dell

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#33242 - 09/21/07 01:36 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: dalguard]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
 Quote:
Things have changed since then and kids are generally far more dependent on their parents than when we were kids.
You say that like it's a good thing.


Well it is in terms of this discussion it is the reason why I believe what I say.

As far as teaching our children self reliance and responsibility bad. But the alternative parental choices would often be considered irresponsible too. I simply accept that things have changed greatly since I was a child and try to act accordingly.

Added: I have almost no concerns for my daughter like those fallenglass describes. I must admit I have a very few for my 11 yr old son, but they never sound as peaceful is the looking out the window scene described here. For instance most trips to a BMX end when one of us gets hurt - and we haven't gone often because of it! Note the WE, he is dependent and a parent is always present.

museumdork - was one at least one of the High E party recognizable to many on this board?



Edited by mworking (09/21/07 03:09 PM)

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#33252 - 09/21/07 04:24 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: mworking]
BillH Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 59
Loc: Maryland
This is a pretty interesting thread: rock climbers (who most non-climbers see as fooliish risk takers) talking about what risks are appropriate for children. I think a lot of the public would be surprised at some of the views expressed. I have a couple of thoughts.

I agree that many kids today are more dependent on (or controlled by) their parents and other adults than when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. I do not think that is a good thing. Learning to make good, independent judgemnts requires some independence.

As I consider the risks to which kids can be exposed (traffic accidents, drugs, biking or skate boarding without a helmet, climbing trees, swimming in ponds, crossing busy streets, etc.) I think climbing a 5.6 in the gunks (even High E) between two competent, concerned adults on a nice fall day is pretty low risk. Of course I don't know that there were 2 competent concerned adult on Team High E, or that the child was the middle climber. But, as neither I nor either of my kids was involved, that is really none of my business.

When considering something like this for my kids, I always thought the psycological issues were very important. No one should be up on the rock (or in a race car, or in any other risky activity) unless he or she really, really wants to be there. I would not have wanted either of my daughters to climb unless the motivation was hers and the situation such that psycological supporot was readily avalailable. I see no reason to push a child of mine into a sporting situation where she or he might be terrified.

Finally, one of the things I liked about climbing at the Gunks in the 60s and 70s, and am glad is still the case today, is that no one tried to regulate what or how I climbed or whether I was suitably skilled or mature to climb. [Thanks to the Vulgarians for beating off the Appies.] The rocks are just there and I have the freedom to climb them (albeit now for a modest fee). I hope we all keep this freedom in mind and don't get too judgmental about the ascent of High E that started this thread.
_________________________
Bill Hutchins
Hutbill@comcast.net
http://www.reliclife.blogspot.com

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#33264 - 09/22/07 02:11 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: BillH]
gunks Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/26/01
Posts: 84
Loc: Rosendale, NY
I am surprised at the responses to my two-sentence post. I will leave the discussion of whether it is a risky outing for a 6-year old to other parents. Here are my responses to some of your questions.

The child’s parents are not climbers. Her father was waiting at the base while my second (a mature adult) and I took her up High E. My second belayed me and took out the gear. I led with two ropes with my second on one and the child on the other. My second climbed slightly ahead of her and made sure that she was not off route etc.. To get down, I did a tandem rappel with her. So she was never out of sight or out of reach of her adult partners.

Climbing High E was the child’s idea. She saw the climb on a telescope at my friend’s house and wanted to be on the High E to wave hello to my friend. Before High E, we’ve done several multi-pitch climbs and she had no problem climbing Apoplexy, Higher Stannard (direct start and finish), Birdie Party (1st pitch), Something Interesting and Hyjek’s Horror, just to name a few.

Yes, she had fun. I told her that a famous climber once said that the best climbers are the ones who have the most fun and it’s not worth doing any climb if she’s not enjoying it.

Yes, the child is the same “little Japanese girl” you saw in Central Park. The week after our High E climb, she did a V6 in Central Park. I told two of my climber friends that she did a V6, both of them said, “You mean ‘V 3’?”. No, I mean 5.12. I heard that Urban Climber is doing an article on her.

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#33265 - 09/22/07 02:25 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Thanks for your reply. Sounds like you covered all the concerns and had a great time.

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#33268 - 09/22/07 02:51 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: chip]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Very cool Gunks. Nice work.

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#33269 - 09/22/07 11:43 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Nice Gunks, what an awesome time. Never mind the rest of the dribble around here. Far less dangerous (and way more fun) then soloing 50' trees when I was six years old.

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#33276 - 09/23/07 11:32 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Rockanice Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/99
Posts: 146
Loc: New York


10 year old giving hip belay.

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#33286 - 09/24/07 01:47 PM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: Smike]
rime Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 14
Hey Smike - I think you mean "drivel", not "dribble", which sort of puts your post in the same category?...

Nice outing, Gunks, thanks for the added details.

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#33293 - 09/25/07 01:08 AM Re: Youngest climber on High E? [Re: gunks]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
 Originally Posted By: gunks
Yes, she had fun.


Eeeeeeeeeeexcellent! Rule#2 is have fun. If not, why bother?

IBBY!
Dizz
_________________________
I can handle reality in small doses, but as a lifestyle it's way too confining
-Lily Tomlin

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