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#33243 - 09/21/07 02:20 PM Still a Landis Fan
d-elvis Offline
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Registered: 04/26/00
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Loc: Central PA
Don't care what they say, met the man, believe in him. That's all I'm saying.
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#33251 - 09/21/07 04:03 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: d-elvis]
oenophore Offline
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Do you suppose he would have won the race without "juice"?
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#33284 - 09/24/07 03:43 AM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: oenophore]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
 Originally Posted By: oenophore
Do you suppose he would have won the race without "juice"?


please correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is that the type of hormone supplement in question would have been of no help at all during a race ... that it is used over a long period to speed recovery and allow someone to train harder/more frequently than they could without it.

which if true would cast serious doubts on floyd's motives for taking it. considering that 1) it isn't helpful in that context and 2) it's common knowledge that a test for it now exists, why on earth would he have sabotaged himself by dosing during the race (whether or not he had used it in previous months during training).

am i wrong about the nature of the hormone?

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#33287 - 09/24/07 01:51 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
pedestrian Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
paul--

long term use of testosterone causes your own body's (err, I mean "your own organism's"... lol) production to decrease. I don't know the medical details enough to know whether this would have interfered during the race, but it's conceivable that he had to keep taking it once he started.

I sympathize with Floyd's side of the argument but I haven't seen him make any effective rebuttal to the multiple B samples from earlier in the Tour that they went back and tested. I've read Floyd's book, which means that I've only heard his side of the argument; I expect that the 84-page decision document will be posted to Trust But Verify sometime soon so that we can all hear the prosecution's case for once, in addition to Floyd's litany of appeals to emotion.


Edited by pedestrian (09/24/07 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: correct URL

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#33289 - 09/24/07 04:56 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: pedestrian]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
speculation from a chemitry blog:

"Some rumors are circulating that he wasn't purposely using testerone. Instead he was blood doping (which they do not have a test for) and used a bag from earlier in the year when he was using testerone on accident. Would this be possible?"

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#33290 - 09/24/07 07:40 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
this is interesting. the panel that upheld the judgement against landis voted 2 to 1.

from velo news:

"Such panels are composed of three members, one chosen by USADA - in this case McLaren - one chosen by the accused athlete - Campbell - and a chairman picked by the two original arbitrators. The same process is used when selecting members of the appeals panel at the International Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland."

Here is Christopher Campbell's (the panelist picked by landis) official dissent:

http://www.velonews.com/media/LandisDissent.pdf

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#33294 - 09/25/07 01:26 AM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
Dizzy Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
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Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
Several observations:
1. There is a test for homolgous blood doping. This is using the blood from another person. It's what nailed Tyler Hamilton. If you use your own, it's probaly not detectable but most elite athlets didn't go this way because the recovery from that much blood loss really puts a dent in your ability to train. If you use your own, I don't know that they can tell.

2. If the lab in responsible for testing the athletes samples had the same inconsistancies in testing a sample for a patient, where a doctor then made a dignosis and the patient dies, there would be a HUGE outcry and many milions of dollars or Euros paid to the family. However, the WADA and USADA are essentialy witch hunting and in the quest of "cleaning up the sport" are overlooking basic rules and regulations concerning the handling of samples.


Do I think Floyd is guilty? Maybe. But he should be let go. The public is outraged when a murderer is let go on a "technicality" but it is this kind of thing that makes the cops more vigilant about chain of custody for evidence and reading the Mirandas, etc. so that in the future this kind of technicality doesn't let a guilty perosn go and so that we can have confidence in the outcomes.

IBBY!
Dizz
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#33300 - 09/25/07 03:11 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: Dizzy]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 321
Loc: New York, NY
"1. There is a test for homolgous blood doping. This is using the blood from another person. It's what nailed Tyler Hamilton."

I'm wondering if it could have been his own blood, from an earlier period when he did use the hormone. either way it would mean he cheated, but it would be more reasonable to explain it as a massive screw up than as Floyd and his team just being incredibly stupid.

However, I read some skepticism from scientists, saying that transfused blood would likely not transfer enough of the hormone to cause a positive result.

"However, the WADA and USADA are essentialy witch hunting and in the quest of "cleaning up the sport" are overlooking basic rules and regulations concerning the handling of samples."

agreed. it's also been pointed out that unlike labs working in other areas of science, these anti doping labs are not subject to any peer review or transparency of process. especially critical since the carbon isotope tests require extremely skillful interpretation. it's not uncommon for two qualified labs to disagree on a result.

did you read the pdf i linked above? it sounds to me like the lab's gaffs went beyond mere technicalities.

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#33306 - 09/25/07 10:48 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
Dizzy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 2177
Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
 Originally Posted By: paulraphael
did you read the pdf i linked above? it sounds to me like the lab's gaffs went beyond mere technicalities.


I did and it confirmed my thoughts that the labs are allowed to be sloppy and get away with it.

IBBY!
Dizz
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I can handle reality in small doses, but as a lifestyle it's way too confining
-Lily Tomlin

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#38137 - 06/30/08 07:43 PM Landis Ban Upheld [Re: d-elvis]
d-elvis Offline
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Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA


Edited by d-elvis (06/30/08 07:43 PM)
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