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#33243 - 09/21/07 02:20 PM Still a Landis Fan
d-elvis Offline
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Registered: 04/26/00
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Don't care what they say, met the man, believe in him. That's all I'm saying.
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#33251 - 09/21/07 04:03 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: d-elvis]
oenophore Online   confused
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Do you suppose he would have won the race without "juice"?
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#33284 - 09/24/07 03:43 AM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: oenophore]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
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 Originally Posted By: oenophore
Do you suppose he would have won the race without "juice"?


please correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is that the type of hormone supplement in question would have been of no help at all during a race ... that it is used over a long period to speed recovery and allow someone to train harder/more frequently than they could without it.

which if true would cast serious doubts on floyd's motives for taking it. considering that 1) it isn't helpful in that context and 2) it's common knowledge that a test for it now exists, why on earth would he have sabotaged himself by dosing during the race (whether or not he had used it in previous months during training).

am i wrong about the nature of the hormone?

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#33287 - 09/24/07 01:51 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
pedestrian Offline
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Registered: 08/05/02
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paul--

long term use of testosterone causes your own body's (err, I mean "your own organism's"... lol) production to decrease. I don't know the medical details enough to know whether this would have interfered during the race, but it's conceivable that he had to keep taking it once he started.

I sympathize with Floyd's side of the argument but I haven't seen him make any effective rebuttal to the multiple B samples from earlier in the Tour that they went back and tested. I've read Floyd's book, which means that I've only heard his side of the argument; I expect that the 84-page decision document will be posted to Trust But Verify sometime soon so that we can all hear the prosecution's case for once, in addition to Floyd's litany of appeals to emotion.


Edited by pedestrian (09/24/07 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: correct URL

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#33289 - 09/24/07 04:56 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: pedestrian]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
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Loc: New York, NY
speculation from a chemitry blog:

"Some rumors are circulating that he wasn't purposely using testerone. Instead he was blood doping (which they do not have a test for) and used a bag from earlier in the year when he was using testerone on accident. Would this be possible?"

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#33290 - 09/24/07 07:40 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
paulraphael Offline
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Registered: 01/22/02
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this is interesting. the panel that upheld the judgement against landis voted 2 to 1.

from velo news:

"Such panels are composed of three members, one chosen by USADA - in this case McLaren - one chosen by the accused athlete - Campbell - and a chairman picked by the two original arbitrators. The same process is used when selecting members of the appeals panel at the International Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland."

Here is Christopher Campbell's (the panelist picked by landis) official dissent:

http://www.velonews.com/media/LandisDissent.pdf

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#33294 - 09/25/07 01:26 AM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
Dizzy Offline
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Several observations:
1. There is a test for homolgous blood doping. This is using the blood from another person. It's what nailed Tyler Hamilton. If you use your own, it's probaly not detectable but most elite athlets didn't go this way because the recovery from that much blood loss really puts a dent in your ability to train. If you use your own, I don't know that they can tell.

2. If the lab in responsible for testing the athletes samples had the same inconsistancies in testing a sample for a patient, where a doctor then made a dignosis and the patient dies, there would be a HUGE outcry and many milions of dollars or Euros paid to the family. However, the WADA and USADA are essentialy witch hunting and in the quest of "cleaning up the sport" are overlooking basic rules and regulations concerning the handling of samples.


Do I think Floyd is guilty? Maybe. But he should be let go. The public is outraged when a murderer is let go on a "technicality" but it is this kind of thing that makes the cops more vigilant about chain of custody for evidence and reading the Mirandas, etc. so that in the future this kind of technicality doesn't let a guilty perosn go and so that we can have confidence in the outcomes.

IBBY!
Dizz
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#33300 - 09/25/07 03:11 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: Dizzy]
paulraphael Offline
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"1. There is a test for homolgous blood doping. This is using the blood from another person. It's what nailed Tyler Hamilton."

I'm wondering if it could have been his own blood, from an earlier period when he did use the hormone. either way it would mean he cheated, but it would be more reasonable to explain it as a massive screw up than as Floyd and his team just being incredibly stupid.

However, I read some skepticism from scientists, saying that transfused blood would likely not transfer enough of the hormone to cause a positive result.

"However, the WADA and USADA are essentialy witch hunting and in the quest of "cleaning up the sport" are overlooking basic rules and regulations concerning the handling of samples."

agreed. it's also been pointed out that unlike labs working in other areas of science, these anti doping labs are not subject to any peer review or transparency of process. especially critical since the carbon isotope tests require extremely skillful interpretation. it's not uncommon for two qualified labs to disagree on a result.

did you read the pdf i linked above? it sounds to me like the lab's gaffs went beyond mere technicalities.

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#33306 - 09/25/07 10:48 PM Re: Still a Landis Fan [Re: paulraphael]
Dizzy Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
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Loc: Berkshires, MA and Ahlington, ...
 Originally Posted By: paulraphael
did you read the pdf i linked above? it sounds to me like the lab's gaffs went beyond mere technicalities.


I did and it confirmed my thoughts that the labs are allowed to be sloppy and get away with it.

IBBY!
Dizz
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#38137 - 06/30/08 07:43 PM Landis Ban Upheld [Re: d-elvis]
d-elvis Offline
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Edited by d-elvis (06/30/08 07:43 PM)
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#38155 - 07/01/08 03:38 PM Re: Landis Ban Upheld [Re: d-elvis]
paulraphael Offline
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I have no opinion at all about whether or not he used drugs.

But I think the ruling is a complete sham. The mishandling of the evidence, and the ridiculously lax standards of scientific proof for these cases (well beneath what would pass in a peer-reviewed scientific paper, and WAY below what would pass as evidence in a real court) make this whole thing look like a witch hunt.

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#38179 - 07/02/08 01:43 PM Re: Landis Ban Upheld [Re: paulraphael]
MurphysLaw Offline
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I agree. He may or may not have used drugs.
(Probably did, I think that most, if not all of the Pro peloton has doped and/or drugged at some point. Including a very high profile ex rider w/ the initials LA.)

Sucks that in spite of all the errors, gaffes, and utter f-ups that were made, that they still got a 'conviction'.

It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham.
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#38520 - 07/17/08 03:28 PM Re: Landis Ban Upheld [Re: MurphysLaw]
TrippleB Offline
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Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 34
Loc: NY
I firmly believe he did not use drugs. Several pro cyclists including Lance Armstrong believe that he did not use drugs. Phil Liggett believes that he did not use drugs.

The fact that his tests were clean prior to this one, and after this one, which was conducted unprofessionally, in direct violation of the testing rules and without the standards of care nessessary to back the results would result not only in a slam dunk declaration of "not guilty" for Landis in any US court or alternative dispute resolution forum, but would undoubetly result in a declaration of innocence.

I think Landis was a fool for fighting it though. The UCI has an immense amount of control over the sport and there was no way the USADA or the SAC was going to go against the UCI declarations. The current "black ball" of team Astana (managed by the man who was director sportif of US Postal and Team Discovery)and the lack of outcry, aside from Phil Liggett, is evidence of the UCI's deathgrip over the sport. Astana was a dirty team, but has been 100% flipped with and uses a similar multi-million dollar in house anti-doping prgram that Garmin-Chipotle and Columbia are being praised for, Bruyneel is hated by the UCI for redefining the sport of cycling (see all the changes he brought to the sport with US Postal and Lance) and bringing Lance Armstrong to the podium of the Tour. The UCI also obviously seeked to bar the ever clean Contador, who was the 2007 tour victor and leading member of Astana (the guy won the Giro d'Italia this year with ease and clean blood). Make no mistake there is a double standard at play in the world of cycling, which clouds and magnifies the doping issue.

Pro Cycling is not the cesspool that many make it out to be. Some riders do in fact dope. Just this morning I learned that Riccardo Ricco was booted from the current tour due to dopping, a rider I have been a fan of, and was excited to watch in this tour. I believe, however, that the vast majority of riders do not dope. Greg Lamond is a heroic athlete, but his campaign in the US to develop the idea that all Euro cyclists are dopped up is rediculous.

Doping is an unfortunate part of sports, all sports. I competed in cycling as a younin' and in Div I college track and I have seen a fair share of doping. Keep in mind that dropping a bunch of painkillers or using a little epinephrin is doping that can be easily gotten away with in high school and college sports. But those who used drugs were not a large group, nor were they always at the top of the podium. I and nearly all of my teammates over the years remained clean, and kicked ass with a brutal training schedule and spartan lifestyle geared towards recovery and performance. Those who live the life, on the whole, do not even consider doping. After so much sacrifice its just not worth the risks.

Despite the opinions of the uninformed, cycling is at the absolute forefront of anti doping in sports. It has the strictest rules and strictest testing and enforcement. No other sport comes close. All registered riders are subject to testing 365/24/7! No other sport has teams implementing multi-million dollar anti-doping programs. Three teams in this year's tour have spent that money to ensure their riders are clean (Garmin, Columbia, CSC), and the best team in cycling does the same (Astana). You don't see that in Football, Baseball, Football (Soccer), Tennis, or anywhere else.

There are no astrixes in cycling. Cheaters are caught and banned, unlike baseball where they still get their names in the record books.
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#38530 - 07/18/08 04:11 PM Re: Landis Ban Upheld [Re: TrippleB]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Interesting that the UCI isn't doing the testing at the Tour this year.

I don't know whether Landis used or not. I do know that Diz is spot-on, above: UCI's tests and labs would never hold up to the standards of external peer review, or a sick patient. Plus, as has been well demonstrated, the decision-making process is stacked.

So the real tragedy is that we'll never know, and that Landis's career was destroyed by what are, scientifically speaking, unsubstantiated rumors.

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