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#34424 - 11/15/07 10:43 PM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: Fraser]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
That is exactly the attitude that will kill off productivity in the country. That and trying to respond to all these scurrilous charges.

Trying to respond to all these scurrilous charges will surely destroy productivity in your office.
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#34429 - 11/16/07 01:31 AM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: Fraser]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: Fraser
That is exactly the attitude that will kill off productivity in the country. That and trying to respond to all these scurrilous charges.

You mean the scurrilous charge that there was tremendous growth after H.W. and Clinton raised taxes? That those tax rates did not seem to impede the accumulation of wealth or the expansion of the economy while helping to balance the budget and supporting a strong dollar?

Oh yeah, I guess I forgot about the tax rates of the Clinton years killed off productivity.

I think it's the attitude that government is some alien entity which has lead to the fiscal irresponsibility that calls for tax cuts and wars and prescription drug benefits without any way to pay for them, and which has contributed to the falling dollar. Saying "It's not the government's money, it's my money" is like going to the checkout at the grocery store and refusing to pay because it's not the grocery store's money, it's my money. If we don't want to pay so much, then we have to put some stuff back on the shelves. But let's not pretend the grocery store is confiscating our funds. It's our choice how to use our money, but the groceries aren't free. Deciding collectively what goods we want and how much we want to spend is a messy process, and some of us will disagree with the choices. Welcome to democracy.

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#34435 - 11/16/07 05:11 AM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: Fraser]
mworking Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 764
 Originally Posted By: Fraser
It is commonly agreed that heavy taxes have cause the Eurpean community in general to suffer from uncompetitive practices and stalled economic growth.


So is it not so commonly agreed, not a probelm, or do they simply not want to sovle it?

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#34436 - 11/16/07 12:29 PM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: mworking]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
"That those tax rates did not seem to impede the accumulation of wealth or the expansion of the economy while helping to balance the budget and supporting a strong dollar?"

There is no question that the economy of at least the last Clinton term was a facade, based on out of proportion values placed on the .coms sprouting up. This also led to a very weak economy which, combined with the 9/ll catastrophy, should have brought about much earlier weakening of the dollar. I did not have my taxes cut but the extra money left avalable by those cuts allowed the overall economy to continue running along, benefitting all. I credit Clinton with being smart enough not to screw up what was doing well and Bush II with being smart enough to change it when needed, keeping in mind that most of what a president can do for a country economically is only window dressing. It remains the congress that has the most direct impact on our economic growth by budgetting and taxing, while the president can only recommend, approve or dis-approve. The presidency has tremendous influence in that the congress must have overwhelming agreement to do something fiscally that the president doesn't agree with.

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#34438 - 11/16/07 01:36 PM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: chip]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: chip
"There is no question that the economy of at least the last Clinton term was a facade, based on out of proportion values placed on the .coms sprouting up. This also led to a very weak economy" ... "the extra money left avalable by those cuts allowed the overall economy to continue running along, benefitting all."

I think those assertions either miss the point or are wrong on the facts. Even in the first Clinton term, and at least part of the second, the economy experienced very strong growth. Take out the bubble at the end, and the record is still exceptional. If the marginally higher tax rates at those times were a drag on growth, it's hard to see it. I don't know why that evidence is so easily dismissed by those who claim the Clinton tax rates were so awful for the economy. (Some Republicans at the time said the tax hikes would kill the recovery that had just started.)

W's tax cuts were poorly distributed. As I wrote earlier, they were originally proposed to give back the surplus mainly to the wealthy (despite looming debt from entitlement programs and no plan to fix them). When the economy tanked and there was no surplus, the same cuts were marketed as an economic stimulus. But most economists agree that the best way to stimulate the economy through tax cuts is to direct the money at people who will spend it, not give it to the wealthy. (If I'm a business owner, why should I hire or rehire people when most consumers still can't afford to buy more stuff?) Consequently, we got poor bang for the buck for the debt we took on. Growth out of a recessionary period is generally strong, as it was under Clinton. The growth after W's recession as been anemic by comparison.

And the tax cuts have not benefited all. The wealthy have done amazingly well, the middle class and the poor generally have not seen their situation improve. One could argue that the middle class and poor would have done even worse without the tax cuts--it's always hard to replay the history tape under different conditions--but that doesn't explain why the rich should have reaped such spectacular gains while other income groups have remained stagnant at best.

Not to mention that the administration's debt estimates assume nothing will be done to fix the Alternative Minimum Tax (which is essentially becoming a tax increase on the middle class) and include the temporary Social Security surpluses, which allow them to claim hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue that will have to be accounted for at some point.

So back to the OP: national debt contributes to a weak currency. While some of the dollar's fall may be due to other factors such as globalization, I think W's flawed fiscal policies share some of the responsibility.

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#34443 - 11/16/07 05:19 PM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: Fraser]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
oh come on. Gunks.com is responsible for the decline of productivity in this country. I thought everyone knew that.

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#34444 - 11/16/07 05:24 PM Re: Damn the Euro [Re: pedestrian]
d-elvis Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/26/00
Posts: 3650
Loc: Central PA
Damn... boss won't pay me in Euros
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