A simple post on this forum produced a wealth of very useful information last time, so I am going to appeal to your experience and knowledge again -

I would be much more comfortable with my looming camping trip if I was sure I would be able to build a fire every night (I've discovered that wet clothing doesn't dry in the winter, it only freezes which is unhelpful).

I did I trial camping trip last weekend and stayed two nights in the Catskills, with one other person. We hadn't planned on building a fire, so we hadn't brought proper materials but I tried to anyway. Trouble was, the only thing that I could find by way of wood were small sticks, very alive and very covered with ice.

I know I need dry wood, but that can be very hard to find. I know I need some kind of starter (lint? propane?), but I don't have any technique and I would like to be able to produce a fire even if my materials are slim and my fingers are cold. Ideas?

First and foremost - you must not get in a situation where making a fire is necessary. (Read some Jack London) Work on staying dry instead.

That being said, you will probably NOT find dry wood within 200 yd of any Catskill leanto. Either pick up dead, dry wood as you walk along, or take long walks from camp to find it. Lay the fire on a platform of rock or wood to keep it from melting into its own hole (and going out).

But mostly don't expect to be able to do this, and don't plan on it for your warmth or safety. If you want some s'mores, you'll just have to wait til you get home.

good fire starters:
cotton balls globbed with vaseline
purel hand sanitizer
white fuel

I know its much harder, but in your experience have you been able to get a fire going on live wood?
I know its unlikely that I'll be able to maintain a fire all night, but even a fire for a few minutes would be enormously helpful. I had ideal camping weather this weekend - not a drop of precipitation (the ice storm started just as I was leaving) but my clothing still got wet just from me getting snow on myself and such. I had extra changes, but it seemed like it would be difficult to keep my outer layer dry at all. And that is when it is not raining.

You should be wearing a shell layer on top, atleast on your lower body... This should help prevent the layers required for warmth from getting wet.

If you ended up getting wet, your systems need some tweaking, and you may want to do another "test" weekend. What would have happened if you'd been caught in the ice storm?

Most inmpoortantly glad to hear you got out at all, and glad a test run!

Then what Mike wrote +

Green (live) wood will not burn.

Small dead wood will be under snow if there is any amount of snow.

There won’t be much if any burnable wood around a campsite that is used as such – unless it is left for that purpose.

Use a white gas stove to cook – at least hot drinks.

You will get your clothes wet. How wet depends. Dillbag – perhaps you might be more specific.

I really feel you need to be willing to borrow, find or invest in at least one or full layered clothing system including clothes that will dry on your body. And a shell that will mostly keep you dry. I think that even with good clothes it will take practice to stay dry!



Which is why the boots with removable liner that someone recommended is important. As mentioned you can take them out and put them in your sleeping bag at night which will may dry them a little, and keep them from freezing overnight.

Clothes that will dry on your body can be warmed by your body even when wet. These clothes aren’t necessarily expensive. You can try synthetic clothes from regular stores. Wash them and compare them to how much water they are holding. If they are light, they aren’t holding much water. Synthetic fabric itself is not a guarantee of not holding water. Check what you already own.

it will if soaked in white fuel.

fire. Fire. FIRE!

Live (green) wood will not burn. You need dead, dry wood. If you have a bunch of live wood (note - please don't bring a saw and start cutting things down. We have enough Boy Scouts * out there already), use it to build a platform. Then make the fire - of dry wood - on top of the platform. It will still be an iffy proposition, since dead wood that looks dry in the winter often contains ice.

* Dons flameproof clothing.

I'm a sweat hog. And no matter what I do to the "system", my clothes get wet. It is as inevitable as you making up words while playing scrabble. My base layers are guaranteed to be wet and usually at least one layer on top of them.

So, that means that I have to carry an extra set when I camp in the winter (which is one reason I don't do it). The wet set goes with me in the sleeping bag at night and at least stays warm throughout the night. Because my clothes are non-cotton, they retain insulation value while wet....

As far as starting a fire in winter. Whenever you see a dead and down white birch tree on your hike, stop, and strip a few pieces of its paper bark from it and put it in your chest pocket. Any time you see a pine cone, pick it up and put it in your pocket. These materials catch fire very easily and can act as the tinder you will need.

Finally, I believe that the Appalachian Mountain Club publishes a book about winter camping that is very good.

Seriously, take 15 minutes and read this:

To Build a Fire

Good reading. Thanks Mike.

While it might not be likely to encounter the kind of cold described in this story, I once took a mitten off at the top of Mt Washington on a rare and beautiful warm (0F) winter day with only 40mi an hour wind. My hand was numb half way through the pee, and it took a good ten minutes to get rid of the tingling afterward to just feel normal but still cold inside the mitten. My hands were not at all cold beforehand.

Just as importantly in terms of survival was the descriptions of the man’s body after he had stopped moving. I have been running trails with precious few clothes on recently. (I’m not an exhibitionist – there is rarely anyone around.) I am acutely quite aware of how quickly I might freeze if something were to happen to me so that I could not run.

I've read To Build a Fire - good story - (I wish I could bring my dog along!), and one of the more annoying things I noticed on the trip was how quickly I lost functionality of my fingers. When I took my gloves off to tie my shoes or whatnot, I constantly had to stop and stick my hands in my armpits to warm them up.

Tough lesson, but its good to know that the warming process is slow unless you have some kind of a heat source. I learned that a mere barrier between the cold air and my cold body doesn't really do much...

I was planning on bringing dryer lint along, as a starter - but if I wanted to keep the fire going for a long period of time (at least an hour or two) , how much wood would that require? I'm guessing more than I can carry just in one trip.

I guess one of the problems is that I'm going to be racing daylight all the time.

A good rule of thumb is that when you think you have enough...gather five times as much.

Loralee, wood is pretty much a bunch of tightly packed tubes and the tubes in green wood are generally filled with a great deal of moisture. Making dry wood out of green wood is therfore a matter of drying the wood from the inside out, to get the water out of the tubes, rather than just drying off the outside. It takes a lot of energy to do this and the way wood usually becomes seasoned or dry is by adding a little energy or heat over an extended period of time, like a few seasons or even a year.

Empicard pointed out that with enough white fuel you can burn pretty much anything, but even with a lot of white fuel, a fire built of green wood will much more closely resemble a steaming clam bake than a campfire.

So Mike has the right idea here Loralee. Don't count on a campfire to stay warm. The heat generated by your body inside a decent sleeping bag and tent will be far more warming than any fire you will be able to build in the Catskills in winter, unless you have access to a large amount of previously dried and covered firewood. You won't find that around here in winter unless you are camping near someone's backyard and you raid their wood pile.

It looks like we'll be in real winter during your excursion. We're about to get dumped with snow and overnight lows in the Catskills may be in the single digits next week.

Camp smart.

I've been checking the weather, and my anxiety about this trip seems to increase dramatically with each passing day.

I would really love to bring my dog along. I have a big slobbery mutt who would follow me to hell - but I don't know if that could work. Not only would I have extra supplies to carry, his hips aren't fabulous, and, well, its December in the Catskills.

How do dogs fare in weather like this? He's likely to get wet, and its not like I can pull him into my sleeping bag with me. I know there are wild dogs in the mountains, but I'm uneasy about subjecting him to extreme conditions.

(and I don't want the idea of killing him to warm my hands to EVER cross my mind!)

good on ya for getting out there. Anyway, perhaps you should pick up a copy of Marc Twight's book Extreme Alpinism for its excellent commentary on layering systems. plan on (a) layering lightly so that you don't sweat out, (b) having a puffball jacket that is sized so that you can throw it on OVER your shell - this will dry everything inside the jacket (c) wear your wet clothing inside your sleeping bag at night.

However, the one piece of advice I would not follow from that book (at this point.. until you get more experienced) is his advice on sleeping bag temperature ratings. Have a SYNTHETIC bag that is rated for no higher than the minimum temperatures you expect to encounter. Won't need a fire if you've got a dry sleeping bag that's warm enough.

Now, making a fire takes some doing, it's more art than science, you'll need to have some newspaper or Campmor catalogs available, and some of the other firestarters people have suggested will also help, make sure to pick up lots of small tiny dry sticks and various sizes working up from that... prop them up with space for them to breathe... and practice.

The driest wood you are likely to find in the winter will be dead, typically roughly half-inch-thick, dried lower branches of living trees. These can be distinguished by their lack of bark and they should break off easily. "Squaw wood." It's a little too thick for kindling unless you're carrying very good firestarters, but is often naturally dried because it's (a) off the ground, still attached to the tree and (b) dead.

As for your dog...if his hips aren't great, then you'd be doing him a great disservice bringing him along. As much as I'm sure he loves you and the outdoors, the up and down hiking will cause him much discomfort. And, could ultimately shorten his life.

My dog is going through the same thing now, and I know how much it bothers him just going up and down the stairs.

Also, as it seems this is your first winter outing, you'll have enough to consider without worrying about your dog. If something happens to him on the trail, well...you get the picture.

Please read these for starters:
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml
http://www.backpacking.net/wintertips.html

...then, if you haven't already, maybe pick up that AMC book on winter camping someone mentioned.

Answering/reiterating some questions in this and your other thread:

If you're thinking of a nightly fire for warmth and drying stuff and useful for anything except in a dire, life threatening emergency, you're approaching this entirely wrong!

Don't take your dog. Your hands will be full enough as it is.

Yes, you will need a tent - a tarp won't work for you and your current level of experience. (Try it on a stormy winter night at home.)

A closed cell sleeping pad (not an air mattress) is essential to stop conductive heat loss. Without a pad you would still be cold on a 20F night in a -40F rated bag.

You need a breathable, waterproof shell and pants. A poncho is asking for trouble.

Don't plan on hiking in a down jacket.

Food will be a small fraction of the total weight you'll be carrying.

Depending on how cold it is and how strenuous your trip is, you'll need to figure out how to eat between 3500 and 6000 calories per day. It's actually surprisingly difficult to eat that many cals. On my winter trips in the Daks and White Mtns. we'd put a stick of butter / 4 people in our morning pot of oatmeal and another in our evening one-pot meal.

A headlamp is essential. So is learning how to use a pee bottle inside your sleeping bag without soaking said bag.(It's difficult enough for guys!)

Know how to recognize hypothermia in yourself before it progresses to the stage where you can no longer tell if you're hypothermic (this is nearly impossible even for experienced winter climbers).

Take a small mirror so you can check your nose and face for signs of frostbite since you won't have others who can do this for you. Do you have a facemask? Goggles? Some way to keep your mittens from being blown away or falling into a stream?

Are you sure you want to do this solo? There's an awful lot to do each evening and each morning on a winter backpack for a party of 4 - if you're alone, you get to do it all.

Winter camping for one night is pretty easy, the problem comes when your gear starts getting progressively wetter, which will happen anytime you start to hike or set things down. Work hard at keeping yourself from sweating as much as possible. I love winter camping and often have gone solo, which is a great way to experience the wild life that would otherwise disappear with more people around. This weather will have driven the bears into hibernation but Lynx and Coyotes will still be out. Neither will hurt you but can make some spine tingling sounds.
Snow shoes are an easy way to get around without working too hard or getting snow in your boots, as well as to stomp out a tent platform. Poles help your balance and can be helpful for staking out your tent. Carry an extra, dry set of long underwear and socks to get into before sleeping and put the other set in your bag to dry over night. Extras of everything.
My humble advice is to plan on doing a couple single overnights, not too far from the trailhead, until you get your systems dialed and don't have to think too hard about how to do everything. The snow will be a plus for many reasons, especially the sound insulation. Pile some up as a wind break on the side of your tent if needed and melt away to hydrate.
Drink enough and eat enough to stay warm if needed, especially during the night. A fire is nice but can be way more trouble than it is worth. A nice piece of flat rock placed on the snow is an easier way to start one than directly on the snow. Enjoy!

I don't like open fires when camping, but knowing how to build a fire in the snow is a survival technique that could come in handy. Think of the family in Cali; it was lucky they were found alive. They survived without a fire, but a fire would have made the nights a lot more comfortable.

The lower limbs of pine trees are usually dead and dry. If they can be broken off they'll burn nicely. The small twigs will burn really fast, so get a lot of them. While most green wood won't burn, pine pitch is flammable, and once you get the snow off the smaller branches and needles will burn. Dig down under the snow, there's a chance that you'll find a bed of needles that is relatively dry. The pine needles will dry out quickly, burn hot and fast so get a lot of them. They'll might pop and send embers flying, so don't build it too close to your tent. Also, don't build the fire under a tree, the heat will cause the snow on the limbs above to come crashing down and put out the fire.

Birch bark is also good for starting fires, dries out quickly. Don't strip live trees unless it's a survival situation... but there's probably plenty of dead logs you can strip.

Find logs buried under the snow; the outside may be wet, but as long as it's not green, it will dry out and burn. Try to get as much snow off them so that as they're drying they don't put out the fire.

For a firestarter, there's nothing better than a magnesium block. A small pile scraped off will ignite just about anything, and you don't need matches. Of course it's heavy, so many just carry flint and striker, but then you need something that burns. A film canister with a couple of vaseline caked cotton balls is a good firestarter and is light enough. You can also use chapstick and some cotton gauze from your first aid kit.

Always good to know a few survival techniques.

What Quanto said. In the Catskills there is frequently easy to find pieces of rock broken into 1-3 inch sediment layers. Placed on the snow, this makes starting a fire much easier when the snow is more than a foot deep. As the rock stays warm, expect the fire to slowly melt down through the snow and eventually become difficult to maintain due to inadequate O2 if the snow is deep enough. I've seen snow depths well over 6' by the end of the season in the Catskills several times.

Due to the fact that about 99 % of my friends seemed to think it was a bad idea, the faculty at my college were all extremely concerned (I told two professors and suddenly about 15 of them knew), a mandatory trip to the Deans office, and the massive influx of snow...I have decided to postpone this trip for a more weather-friendly time.

Thank you all for all of the information - I'm sorry to have wasted your time - but you were extremely helpful, and I'm sure all of the information will come in handy when I actually do go camping.

weird they make such a big deal about someone wanting to camp out in the snow. i bet they're heads would explode if they were ever told *gasp* there was underage drinking going on!

Loralee, as you were very sincere in your inquires and I'm sure you're still going on this trip (albeit another time)...your post begs a question;

Did your trip questions have anything to do with some sort of academic writing requirement?

I think 95% of the concern expressed here was due to your intention to go out there on your initial trip(s) ALONE. As in many potentially serious undertakings, it is SO MUCH better to go with at least one other person who knows what they're doing. Keep that in mind "for next time".

BTW the weather this week is prime for hypothermia: heavy wind-driven rain, wet snow to slog through, then a return to subfreezing temps at night.

yea, sounds like good weather to stay inside and drink a fifth of scotch.

Yeah, the trouble with planning a trip like this two months (or even two weeks) in advance is that the weather isn't really kind enough to conform to your plans.

And Mike, you are right - one of the biggest flaws (biggest of many flaws) is the fact that I was going solo. There were also a number of little things that could go wrong...but with the conditions (inexperience, winter, catskills, solo) any of those things could be fatal. That didn't sit well with me (or anyone).

The other (and this irks me to no end) is the eighteen-year-old-girl factor. Its true that it adds another element of danger...I'm annoyed because I can't get away from it.

AOR: Its interesting that you ask that. This wasn't for any writing requirement, but, as with all of my other adventures, I was planning to keep a detailed log. I bought a notebook in which I detailed the process (tracked down appropriate sleeping bag...decided on trail...had to visit the dean...) and such. I was planning on writing a lot when I was out there, just because
being completely isolated in an environment so different from home makes for excellent writing conditions...though now the notebook is describing the process of deciding not to go.

Another spot of annoyance with the cold: I wasn't comfortable writing anywhere except inside my sleeping bag, which is hard to do.

What made you think it was an academic assignment?

Well, don't give up on the idea. With proper equipment and know-how, anyone can have an enjoyable winter experience.

My son, age 9:

Second Mike's thoughts. My daughter's first winter overnight (age 8) she got to watch a family of Lynx playing near our tent. They later paid us a rather startling (screaming right outside our tent) visit, and she didn't buy my story of Screech Owls for a second. While the overall experience was great, it would have been horrible for a rookie solo outing.
Now you've got the gear, so just watch the weather and sneak it in when the temps are gonna stay above 10 and below freezing. If you need a partner, just start now lining several up so that you are covered with at least one when the time comes. I know a few women who go solo for a bunch of stuff, but that is usually because no one else is available and they won't be denied. Outdoor experiemces are usually more fun with friends. Post up when it finally goes for you.

Thread drift warning.



By far the scariest thing I've ever heard in my life was what I believe were bobcats outside the tent in the middle of the night. God-awful, viscerally frightening howl/growl noise. The kids were with us but thankfully they slept through it. I think it took me an hour to calm down and get back to sleep.

The good thing about winter is that, in general, the wild animals are less active (though my teacher was kind enough to remind me that due to global warming, the bears might NOT be hibernating).

Hibernating is how I like bears best.

Since we are posting pictures: This is a (small) but important lesson I learned
I'd stopped to tie my shoe..I think my hiking partner knew what was coming because he grabbed the camera.
<img src="http://www.flickr.com/photos/14335492@N04/2133691536/">

And when I got up, I realized that my bag was a bit topheavy...
<img src="http://www.flickr.com/photos/14335492@N04/2133692146/">
Notice my gloves are in entirely the wrong place.

lets try:


and



very nice!
looks like youre having fun, anyway.
keep that water bottle closer at hand, or you'll never drink it!

How did you manage that?!

Nice sequence photos! You will also learn to use wide mouthed bottles and keep them insulated in your puffy coat or inside commercial insulators or your winter overnight will be a thirsty one.
Reminds me of watching a friend step off the tent platform we had stomped with our snowshoes. He had just taken his off and felt the call. He disappeared in over 6 foot of snow and I could hardly help him out, even if I weren't convulsed with laughter.

You'll also learn that when you stop moving and exerting yourself and it's time to set up camp at the end of the day, you'll get cold quickly and you'll need something warm and dry to put on. If you've been hiking in your down jacket, you'll also learn that it's now saturated with sweat and has the insulating qualities of wet toilet paper.

Do you mean having the pictures show up?

http://www.gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/ubb/faq#image

Thanks for the photo info.

I also did learn the hard way about the down jacket. I found some kind of waterproof shell for it, but it wasn't raining, so I figured I didn't need it. My sweat didn't get to it (other layers underneath) but snow fell on it, and it was rendered useless. Also annoying to drag around.

Also scary: A lot of snow fell on my head. It was welcome at first, because I was hot from hiking but I had snow tangled up in my hair. The snow melted, and then refroze so when the sun went down it was like I was wearing an unmovable ice cap. I've been growing my hair for a long time but I seriously considered whipping out my pocket knife and chopping it all off, just to get the ice away. Had I gotten a little colder, I would have.

Loralee, you sound hard core to consider chopping the locks! Either that or you really hate being cold more than you care about the look.

Wear a waterproof and breathable shell with a hood - Gortex, Enervex, et al over a polyester fleece layer of appropriate thickness for temp and activity. Leave the down jacket in its waterproof stuff sack during the day. Maybe even consider leaving the down jacket at home.


Wear a breathable shell with a hood. And for dog's sake, brush the snow out of your hair before it refreezes. Regularly brush it off your clothing as well.

And wear a breathable shell.

What is a reliable way to check the weather in the Catskills?

I always use the NOAA...click the link and type in the zip code for the local weather of the area you want.