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#36184 - 03/31/08 04:31 PM Runners
danskiz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 244
Loc: Jamestown ny
I'm looking to update all my runners, cord, and such this year. Does anyone have any opinions on the BD 10 mm dynex, or the mammut 8 mm (contact?) runners? Last time I did this, spectra was the big thing, and it looks like the new ones are the same thing, just different name. All my current runners are, if I remember correctly, wild things spectra. Any suggestions?

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#36203 - 04/01/08 03:55 AM Re: Runners [Re: danskiz]
tokyo bill Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 793
Loc: Tokyo
My choice for sewn runners for the last ten years has been Bluewater titan runners.

http://www.bluewaterropes.com/home/produ...=16&ProdKey=128

27 KN seems to be about the strongest on the market. Just about everything else seems to be 22 KN. If you're assuming a strength loss of around 30% from girth-hitching, and if you figure you're probably going to girth-hitch runners from time to time, that extra 5 KN increases that cozy feeling. Also, they're light, tough and comfortable to handle.

The cool, new, skinny, sewn runners (Mammut 8mm) are nice, and definitely lighter and more compact that the BWs. I'm happy to use my partners', but I don't have the urge to buy them myself. Just as a psychological matter for me personally, they don't have enough beef to inspire full confidence. (Just ordered a new generation of BWs from REI to replace the current batch.)

As for cord, I'm pretty easy - just tend to buy whatever they have on the spool in the shop I happen to be in in the diameter I need. However, I use cord less frequently than runners.

Edited to add: I have a couple of the BD 10mm dynex, and found that they fuzzed up a lot faster than the BWs. I'm sure they're still fine, but the fuzzing effect made them at least appear less durable. The pictures on the BD web site make the newext dynex look lightly different than the ones I've got (different weaving pattern along the outside edges), so maybe they've changed from the prior generation that I'm using. (In any case, mine are getting retired along with my previous batch of BWs when the new batch arrive.)


Edited by tokyo bill (04/01/08 04:03 AM)

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#36204 - 04/01/08 04:31 AM Re: Runners [Re: tokyo bill]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
According to Moyers tests of High-Strength cord, Mountain Tools ultratape is superior to virtually everything else, maintaining a nearly constant single-strand strength of nearly 4,000 lbs, pretty much the same as 1" tubular nylon, over a very large number of bending cycles.

Titan cord starts out in those tests considerably weaker than BD Technora and Maxim Spectra A but, after 200 bending cycles, is better than all the other tapes tested, although still 1000 lbs weaker than ultratape.

The fact that one material has a higher tensile rating than another does not, as far as I know, guarantee that it will form a stronger girth hitch.

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#36205 - 04/01/08 07:43 AM Re: Runners [Re: rg@ofmc]
tokyo bill Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 793
Loc: Tokyo
 Quote:
According to Moyers tests of High-Strength cord, Mountain Tools ultratape is superior to virtually everything else, maintaining a nearly constant single-strand strength of nearly 4,000 lbs, pretty much the same as 1" tubular nylon, over a very large number of bending cycles.


Thanks RG, your information is great, as usual. I didn't remember that result for the Ultratape from Moyers - just went back to look at it again.

For what it's worth, my understanding has always been that the BW sewn runners (despite the "Titan" brand name) are actually combination of nylon and spectra, which is what Mountain Tools says their Ultratape is made out of. The BW tech manual confirms this (http://www.spelean.com.au/BW/TM/BWtechweb.html).

I think that the "BW Titan" tested by Moyers is actually BW's Titan cord, not their sewn runners, as suggested by his description of BW Titan as having a "braided Spectra/Nylon core and a Nylon sheath". However, Moyers comments on the special weaving of the Ultratape and notes that testing of other types of nylon/spectra tape would be needed to determine if the Ultratape results are repeated with more conventionally woven versions of the product.

Setting that aside, I further understood that the reason the BW runners get the 27 KN rating is that they sew their bar tacks with spectra thread, in contrast to most (all?) other companies. Since the bar tacks are not generally subject to too much flexing, being thicker than the surrounding material, I've always reasoned that using spectra here shouldn't be a problem.

Actually BW is a large OEM manufacturer, which means they might even be the manufacturers of Ultratape. Anyone know?

 Quote:
The fact that one material has a higher tensile rating than another does not, as far as I know, guarantee that it will form a stronger girth hitch.


Good point.

Edited to add: Regarding girth hitch strength. This set of tests is interesting, although not definitive: http://www.climerware.com/knot.shtml

Also Edited to add: Sorry, got my techno-nerd hat stuck on there for a minute...




Edited by tokyo bill (04/01/08 08:19 AM)

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#36215 - 04/01/08 03:45 PM Re: Runners [Re: danskiz]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Most of my runners are mammuts. Aside from the technical aspects:

I like that they are much less bulky, making it easier to carry long runners. On the other hand, because they're so thin, they tend to get tangled more.

They're slightly shorter than other runners. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but sometimes it's just annoying.

They seem to get caught up much more. The nut tool gets tangled in them. They catch on rocks, trees, anything with a rough surface. I don't remember my nylon slings getting caught up nearly as much.
_________________________


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#36217 - 04/01/08 04:43 PM Re: Runners [Re: quanto_the_mad]
danskiz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 244
Loc: Jamestown ny
I just checked out the titan runners, and based on size, it looks to me that they would be the equivalent to what I have right now. It looks like to a point, it comes down to size. This is what I'm seeing right now;

Bluewater Titan - 27KN at 13mm wide, cant find weight anywhere
BD Dynex - 22KN at 10mm wide, 19 grams for a 24 inch runner
Mammut Contact - 22KN at 8mm wide, 18 grams for a 24 inch runner
I just found some spectra runners on acmeclimibing, that are rated at 27KN, and look exactly the same as the one's I currently have(the one's I have were made by wild things).
I even found 2 different petzl dyneema runners, one 8mm, and one 12mm, but both rated at 22KN, so who he hell knows....

Of all of the above, ironically the 2 cheapest ones were also the strongest rated, the Bluewater titan, and the acme spectra. For some reason, I have always had a problem buying climbing gear from a company named acme though! I have read in more than one spot that the bd dynex slings fuzz up pretty quick, which would be a pita in the winter(ice seems to grow on any fuzzed up fabric available), and the mammut contacts are just not very confidence inspiring.... So it looks like it may just be the Bluewaters for me!
All the input is much appreciated.

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#36221 - 04/01/08 06:26 PM Re: Runners [Re: rg@ofmc]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
According to Moyers tests of High-Strength cord, Mountain Tools ultratape is superior to virtually everything else, maintaining a nearly constant single-strand strength of nearly 4,000 lbs, pretty much the same as 1" tubular nylon, over a very large number of bending cycles.


But Rich, that paper represents the state of the market almost 9 years ago...The materials, construction techniques and all that have changed a bit.

Dan, check out yates too: yatesgear.com.

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#36222 - 04/01/08 06:58 PM Re: Runners [Re: crackers]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
 Originally Posted By: crackers
But Rich, that paper represents the state of the market almost 9 years ago...The materials, construction techniques and all that have changed a bit.


Yes, quite true. And frankly, from a practical perspective, I think that all runners are basically strong enough and you might as well buy the colors and/or patterns you like best.

I, like most people, like the dental floss, but I've decided to try to be at least a little vigilent about aging. The new miracle materials don't seem to age well and when there is so little material to begin with, one has to think carefully about timely retirement. I now augment the dental floss with a few good old nylon 9/16" runners. They seem to be more robust, produce lower (although of course still very high) impact loads, and keep a reasonable level strength much longer than the newer stuff. Plus, if a runner is going over an edge or will be rubbing a lot on something, I want a beefier nylon sling and not some transparent dyneema filament.

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#36224 - 04/01/08 07:50 PM Re: Runners [Re: rg@ofmc]
Coppertone Online   content
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
I still use the nylon runners as opposed to spectra. I have tried the spectra but don't really like them. As Rich just said they are all strong enough, is 23 vs. 27 KN really going to make any practical difference? Weight really isn't an issue either. How much does a runner really weigh? Do you really think the weight difference of 12 spectra vs. 12 nylon runners is going to keep you from nailing that crux more. Use what you are comfortable with and what works for you, don't worry about the newest, lightest materials and technology when it comes to slings(its not like cams where the new generation of C4's offered a significant savings in weight).

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#36226 - 04/01/08 08:25 PM Re: Runners [Re: Coppertone]
danskiz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 244
Loc: Jamestown ny
I just checked out that yates link, and like petzl, they offered two different widths (11mm and 14mm), but strength stated was 22kn for both. That is making me think that the overall strength of the runner has less to do with the size, and more to do with the bartacks. Especially since the 8mm mammot, and the 14mm yates have the same advertised strength.

Like it was stated above, the width of the webbing probably has more to do with longevity rather than strength. And as stated above, is 23kn vs. 27kn really going to make any practical difference? Probably not. Weight is not really an issue, cause their all light. It's starting to look to me like the real choice is durability vs ease of racking(less bulk).

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