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#37363 - 05/29/08 02:29 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Fraser]
Terrie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
Moonlight....Oh yeah. Now there's a walking the plank situation I'll never forget! I was sooooo sceeered. And SO relieved when I made it. And SO pissed when the climbing upwards was hard(for me at the time)!

Good times.

Outreach program for new climbers - It's a nice idea, and you know, if I had a climbing gym, I'd see this as an opportunity to do just that. But it's a 'you lead a horse to water but can't make him drink' thing. People don't want to pay for competant teaching when their boyfriend or buddy who started a year or less ago confidently tells them they can teach them all they need to know.

The Mohonk Preserve DOES run those beginner workshops during the New Paltz film festival, and I think they are even free, aren't they?

Maybe it would be a project for someone looking for a new lot in life to create a NFP entity that offered such workshops at popular crags at season's start...... Worthy, for sure. But a pretty big effort involved.

It's also an interesting note that whenever the self-rescue stuff is offered,whether it's for free or part of a paid weekend workshop with other options, that self-rescue is sparsely attended.
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#37374 - 05/29/08 05:18 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Terrie]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Taking a factor-two fall, if that's what it really was, on sling material will produce forces around 18 kN. This can break some gear and can also break some climbers. She's lucky to walk away with her spine intact---well, lucky to walk away period.

As for self-rescue knowledge, most self-rescue methods are complicated, require excellent judgement and rope-handling experience, and are often not particularly applicable to real situations in the field. My guess is that the minimal training typically provided would only have given the party in question multiple new and elaborate ways to do something incomprehensibly stupid and dangerous.

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#37375 - 05/29/08 05:29 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: yellowhouse]
Bolt_Skytop Offline
addict

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 422
Loc: New Paltz, New York
Nice I love this story. Can I get a high resolution copy of that picture I want to put it as my desktop.
I screamed like a little bitch when I fell off modern times. Then my partner lowered me. No knives, no six person f-ed up rescue, just lowered.
Its not as if complex rescue skills were required to lower this girl. Scary stuff.
Reminds me of that dude I saw deck off of running man last year. His first time outside and he hops on an 11. You can imagine how well that worked. I can't believe more people don't die.

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#37376 - 05/29/08 05:39 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Bolt_Skytop]
empicard Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2957
Loc: LI, NY
My spine and kidneys are fine after learning to place gear thusly:

set up TR
climb up
place gear
clip girth hitched runner to piece
slack in TR
jump (and yes, some jumps were from above the gear - one whopper was on a 4 foot sling)

basically a severe bounce test.


yea, i know, WOW. stoopid, right? not a single piece pulled. not a single drop of blood in my pee.
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#37377 - 05/29/08 05:45 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: rg@ofmc]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Taking a factor-two fall, if that's what it really was, on sling material will produce forces around 18 kN. This can break some gear and can also break some climbers. She's lucky to walk away with her spine intact---well, lucky to walk away period.


My guess is that it was a swinging fall and she mostly landed on the slab there. Otherwise, as you suggest, she would likely be more injured.

 Quote:
As for self-rescue knowledge, most self-rescue methods are complicated, require excellent judgement and rope-handling experience, and are often not particularly applicable to real situations in the field. My guess is that the minimal training typically provided would only have given the party in question multiple new and elaborate ways to do something incomprehensibly stupid and dangerous.


I have to respectfully disagree. All you need to know is:

1 - how to set a safe anchor in that face.
2 - How to create an extended rap, with two "arms" (attach yourself to one.)
3 - How to attach an autoblock under your brake strand so you can have both hands free when you get to her.

Then it would have been trivial to rap down to her, attach her to the other arm of the extended rap, and pluck her off. If one couldn't find a way to unweight her rope sufficiently to untie her from it (which really shouldn't be hard, but let's assume it's harder than I think), then that's the time to cut the rope.

What about the above is beyond most parties? Or if I'm neglecting to think of something that would likely get me in trouble, what is that?

GO

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#37378 - 05/29/08 05:50 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: rg@ofmc]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
FWIW, between the position of the red-shirt guy that I saw and the description, it sounds like the anchor* that caught her was approximately even with her. Fall factor ~1, which is rough enough roped, let alone on static material.

*Someone on rc.com also pointed this out, but the anchor built probably utilized the flaring crack deep behind & under The Move - a 3 or 3.5 Camalot? And since Team B likely didn't have multiples in that size, and (also betting from the position of the guy I saw, who was at The Move) pieces at The Move itself. Not likely to have been a wonderful anchor, considering the judgement of the person building it - the knife-supplier.

Edit to add: Gabe, what if the leader of Team B was worried about his own ability to pull The Move, with or without a rope & screaming person in his way? Him falling or hanging there might complicate things.


Edited by Julie (05/29/08 05:53 PM)

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#37380 - 05/29/08 05:51 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
Terrie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
Or, had she learned how to ascend a rope, she could have gotten herself back on the rock and went on her merry way.

Why aren't people interested in this stuff when they start climbing? Seems like so many just want to just get on as hard a route as they can muster, not even mattering if they get up it without falling.
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#37383 - 05/29/08 06:09 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
As for self-rescue knowledge, most self-rescue methods are complicated, require excellent judgement and rope-handling experience, and are often not particularly applicable to real situations in the field. My guess is that the minimal training typically provided would only have given the party in question multiple new and elaborate ways to do something incomprehensibly stupid and dangerous.


 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
I have to respectfully disagree. All you need to know is:

<A minimal selection of techniques>

Then it would have been trivial to

<a simple procedure>

What about the above is beyond most parties? Or if I'm neglecting to think of something that would likely get me in trouble, what is that?


I have to respectfully disagree with the disagreerer, who has both the knowledge of various possibilities and the judgement to select a potentially effective one. This was a party that didn't have enough sense to lower a hanging climber and instead and exposed her to a very high-risk procedure. I have no confidence that arming them with more knowledge would have produced anything more than a more bizarre "solution."

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#37394 - 05/29/08 07:46 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: rg@ofmc]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
I just don't understand why you wouldn't build an anchor *above* her. Why below her or even to the side of her? If you can climb to that point and can build an anchor and intend to cut the rope, why would you not be above her with all slack out of the system?

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#37398 - 05/29/08 08:41 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Julie]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Julie - if the leader from team B was hanging out at the move (I think that's where you describe him as being), trying to coach the hanging girl, then surely he had the ability to climb 10 more feet up and over.

Terrie - I couldn't agree with you more. I think there's something of a gender disparity that sometimes comes into play, too, whereby beginning women climbers seem to rely on their male partners more than they should. I would not say this is the case with the majority of women, or even necessarily the majority of women who climb with their male partners, but it happens enough to be noticeable as a trend. And, too, men may encourage this by acting the part of the all-knowing, strong, competent, yadda yadda. But then this subject is meaty enough for a whole separate thread.

RG - I take your point. While you're probably right, I wouldn't discount what knowledge might do for them. I'd like to think that the poor decisions they made were made mostly out of ignorance.

For example - if we were to describe the scenario, without any judgement, to a non-climber, they might think "Okay - I guess that's just how rescues work. It worked, so they did it right."

What is the layman missing? Two things: 1 - An understanding about forces involved in belayed rope falls versus falls directly on static materials. And 2 - A working knowledge about viable techniques and practices.

If we assume that party B had just enough knowledge to get up a climb more or less safely, but about as much technical knowledge as the layman (a sad state of affairs, no doubt) then their only true fault was having the hubris to think that they knew enough to carry out the rescue.

GO

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