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#37426 - 05/30/08 01:09 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Mike Rawdon]
mikeharo Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 6
I realize that we are making generalizations but let me give you some perspective. My girlfriend and climbing partner took courses on her own, without me present, to learn. Then we went together and practiced. What did we practice? Everything. She only asked one question: I understand how this works and can repeat it perfectly but what happens when it hits the fan? How do I fix this if this whole thing goes south? That forced me to think about all possible situations and how I would work it out and then, more importantly, forced me to know what to do so well that I could then teach her. She can get herself and me out of anything and we are completely confident in each other's abilities. The team on High E? Perhaps a slightly different story. Flame and generalize away folks, just want to chime in for the (younger, 22) climbers who made sure to learn everything possible....and continue to analyze and think about situations.


Edited by mikeharo (05/30/08 01:10 PM)

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#37427 - 05/30/08 01:10 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: learningtolead]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I don't want make generalizations of nooBs and gender, but I do have to point out what REALLY bothers me about the HighE situation.

I originally posted a bet that the leader was buried back in the trees with a locked-down autoblock. I was wrong. I'm really, genuinely disturbed, kept up at night about that - not the ego trip of being wrong, but what it means.

We knew the leader didn't lower the dangling screamer. My original bet was the incompetence scenario - which is bad enough, but understandable, and ultimately forgiveable.

But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique. Thus: he chose to not lower. He rapped. To what - watch? Heckle? Rub it in? Whap?

The idea that he CHOSE not to lower her - to instead, terrorize her, leave her to the unknown bumblings of Party B, and ultimately put her life in danger - willingly? That's wandering into psychotic, control-freak, abusive, and criminal.

I'd really like to be wrong here.




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#37428 - 05/30/08 02:02 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Julie]
Timbo Offline
addict

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 694
Loc: Delaware
 Originally Posted By: Julie
But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique. Thus: he chose to not lower. He rapped. To what - watch? Heckle? Rub it in? Whap?


Is it possible he rigged a Z-pulley and rapped to the usual belay spot to get a better look with the intention of pulling both climbers up, then realized his pulley did not provide enough of a mechanical advantage for that ?

Perhaps he though he could not lower them onto the ledge (i.e. they would only dangle in space, not reaching the ledge but passing it).

Trying to give the benefit of the doubt here. OTOH, the guy did choose to lead a noob up this climb using a totally inappropriate method so his leadership ability is already in question.

TS
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#37434 - 05/30/08 02:56 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
timh Offline
member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 194
Loc: Delaware
 Quote:
....the guy in the middle


Speaking of the guy in the middle, how did he manage to extricate himself from this fiasco?
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#37438 - 05/30/08 03:47 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: timh]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"OTOH, the guy did choose to lead a noob up this climb using a totally inappropriate method so his leadership ability is already in question"

Seems to me this aspect of the situation has not received the attention it deserves. It's all very well to discuss advanced techniques for getting out of f'ed up situations, but it's probably a better idea to avoid them in the first instance, using a few basic principles.

1) if you have any doubt about the ability of your second to cope with the technical/strength challenges of the climb, avoid overhanging climbs where you can't see each other or communicate.

2) if you have any doubt about the ability of your second to cope with the technical/strength challenges of the climb, DON'T FREAKING BELAY TWO SUCH PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME. WHAT ARE YOU, NUTS?

3) above all, don't violate principles 1 and 2 at the same time.

4) finally, if despite the above, you manage to violate all three of these principles and find yourself stuck in some situation like this one, don't jump blindly into the first possible rescue situation that presents itself. Unless you're high in the mountains, with nightfall and a storm coming on, you've got time. Think about your possible choices. Then do it again, some more. There's no way you should end up cutting the rope within the first hour (or two) unless death is imminent otherwise.



Edited by retr2327 (05/30/08 03:53 PM)

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#37439 - 05/30/08 03:51 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Mike Rawdon]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb

Now this is way, way more nasty a situation than the one we're talking about. If anything, you've proved my point, that as rescue situations go, this one should have been a relative no-brainer.

GO


Agreed. I was offering up a couple exercises to challenge folks. The High E team isn't ready for such advanced practice yet; they failed Multipitch 101.


Well okay, then. To answer your question with the fallen leader at a ledge... Frankly, if this were at the Gunks, the first thing I would do is call for help. I know enough about self rescue to know that ascending to a fallen leader has risks in it that cannot be reduced sufficiently to make it worth it if there are better options. I like to be self reliant, but that only goes so far.

Were it somewhere in the wilderness where help would be a long time coming, I'd prussic up the rope, tying knots behind me, until I got to the fallen climber, at which point I'd create an anchor, and do whatever I could for the leader (I only know basic first aid, so that wouldn't be much) and then decide what to do next (most likely rappel with my partner).

Of course, at any point, as I'm ascending, if the top piece blows I'm going to fall the distance between it and the next lowest piece, and rely on the prussics to catch me. Not a good scene (thus the backup knots). Furthermore, as I climb, I have to remove the gear as I go by it, so I'm relying on less and less gear as I go. Of course, if the gear above the fallen climber is minimal or suspect, I can leave some of the gear in and hitch it to the rope as I go by it (great - factor 2 on a prussic!).

Now see why I'd gladly swallow my pride if there were other folks around?

GO

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#37440 - 05/30/08 03:58 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: retr2327]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: retr2327

2) if you have any doubt about the ability of your second to cope with the technical/strength challenges of the climb, DON'T FREAKING BELAY TWO SUCH PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME. WHAT ARE YOU, NUTS?


I'm relatively sure that the last pitch is short enough that with a 60m rope, the middle person could have tied in to the middle of the rope, and the girl could have tied into the end. Y'know - in case they only had one rope, for some reason. Then poor Mr Middle would have been off the rope by the time the girl fell.

And I agree with Julie - it's horrendous to think that the leader just left her dangling her there *on purpose* if he could have just lowered her.

GO

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#37442 - 05/30/08 04:16 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"I'm relatively sure that the last pitch is short enough that with a 60m rope, the middle person could have tied in to the middle of the rope, and the girl could have tied into the end."

I think you're right about that, and it would have been an improvement if so. But -- and it's a big but -- how likely is it that the leader (especially this one) would know for sure? If it's not long enough, you end up with the same mess. Arguably even worse, because neither of the upper two could then communicate with the girl left on the ledge.

Better to review principle 1, and choose a different route. I realize High E is a great climb, but if you're not willing to tailor your lead choices to suit the needs of your second(s), you have no business leading.

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#37445 - 05/30/08 05:04 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: retr2327]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: retr2327

But -- and it's a big but -- how likely is it that the leader (especially this one) would know for sure?


Real easy - If leader finishes the pitch before mid-rope passes through belayer's device, then second ties into the middle. If leader pulls up slack and doesn't get to mid-rope before "that's me", then he knows they're climbing together, otherwise at middle and end.

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#37446 - 05/30/08 05:57 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Mike Rawdon]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
the leader should not have been sitting on the grass on the top there's chiggers in there
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