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#37449 - 05/30/08 06:35 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: EMan]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
 Originally Posted By: EMan
Perhaps someone would go up and re-create for the cameras?


yes strat could be the insensitive leader and smike would be the screaming girl
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#37451 - 05/30/08 06:43 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: phlan]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"Real easy - If leader finishes the pitch before mid-rope passes through belayer's device, then second ties into the middle. If leader pulls up slack and doesn't get to mid-rope before "that's me", then he knows they're climbing together, otherwise at middle and end."

So, let's see . . . . you'll give it a shot and see what happens, and if the rope is too short, you'll end up in the same situation that the party on High E had?

No thanks.

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#37457 - 05/30/08 08:41 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
It might be they only had one rope to use, but the two lower climbers also might have been positioned together precisely so that one could encourage and/or help the other.

This might be OK on a much easier climb, with the more competent climber the lower climber. High E overhangs to far for climbers to help one another, and the move in particular is not a place where help is easily afforded.

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#37461 - 05/31/08 12:10 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: retr2327]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: retr2327
"Real easy - If leader finishes the pitch before mid-rope passes through belayer's device, then second ties into the middle. If leader pulls up slack and doesn't get to mid-rope before "that's me", then he knows they're climbing together, otherwise at middle and end."

So, let's see . . . . you'll give it a shot and see what happens, and if the rope is too short, you'll end up in the same situation that the party on High E had?

No thanks.


I am not for a second suggesting anyone should tackle a challenging route with too few ropes. I agree with that part of your post.

I just figured I'd throw $0.02 in on your comment (quoted in my last post) that said a leader has no way of knowing if their rope is long enough for 3-on-a-rope multi-pitching. Obviously, when it isn't long enough, and/or the party is collectively under-qualified to be there, then it's a BAD IDEA. I think under the vast majority of situations, a 60m rope would be long enough to put the second in the middle on that pitch. But we don't know if this party had Uncle Buford's 45m rope that he brought back from the Tetons in 1978. One thing we do know - it's a bit shorter now!

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#37466 - 05/31/08 03:03 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: talus]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
 Originally Posted By: talus
 Originally Posted By: EMan
Perhaps someone would go up and re-create for the cameras?


yes strat could be the insensitive leader and smike would be the screaming girl


Excellent, and you could be the asshat behind the camera, or the one passing out the knives.

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#37472 - 05/31/08 05:58 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Timbo]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
 Originally Posted By: EMan
...He sets up a z-pulley, locks them off, and raps to the large ledge on top to observe.


 Originally Posted By: Julie
But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique.


 Originally Posted By: Timbo
Is it possible he rigged a Z-pulley and rapped to the usual belay spot to get a better look with the intention of pulling both climbers up, then realized his pulley did not provide enough of a mechanical advantage for that ?


Well, first of all, this pretty much makes my point (echoed by Mike) that a little self-rescue knowledge is not going to get idiots out of trouble. If the account is true, then it is, in a twisted way, hilarious, because you can't leave a z-pulley unattended, there are two friction knots that need to be repositioned every cycle. "Setting up a z-pulley" and then rapping away from it is totally pointless, the z-pulley can't be used by remote control.

Moreover, Timbo's point about friction is almost certainly true. I suspect that in real situations it almost always overwhelms any mechanical advantage a z-pulley can provide. First of all, without any rock friction at all, carabiner friction in the z-pulley rigging itself reduces the mechanical advantage to 2:1. And that is for the standard z-pulley for which the force is applied from above. If you get below the pulley as the leader is supposed to have done and redirect the pulling strand down by running it through a directional biner, you're down to about (1.5):1 without any rock friction. (If you instead rig a "Spanish Burton," you do a little better, but still under 2:1 after biner friction.)

Now let the rope make one fairly sharp bend over an edge (not to mention running down a face and snaking through the various protection points the leader hung on on the way up) and you have no mechanical advantage at all, in fact you are probably in the realm of "mechanical disadvantage," meaning that plain old hauling without any pulleys would be better. A delightful extra benefit is that even though you have no mechanical advantage, you still pay the raising penalty imposed by your system---raising distance is 1/3 of the amount of rope pulled up at each cycle.

If you want a real 3:1 mechanical advantage, you'll have to build a 5:1 compound system, which is going to require some extra sling material and a lot more know-how. Of course, you pay a 5:1 raising penalty for this, and rock friction can still have an overwhelming effect.

Improvised pulley raising is an absolute last resort when there is no other good option available, and even then it may fail unless rope friction against rock and through biners is minimal. Forgetting about the rapping part, building a z-pulley up in the woods is never going to raise a climber hanging way below on High E. The very act of building it illustrates my point about a small amount of knowledge providing nothing more than a new context for incompetence.

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#37476 - 05/31/08 03:19 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Timbo]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Julie
But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique. Thus: he chose to not lower.

 Originally Posted By: Timbo
Is it possible he rigged a Z-pulley and rapped to the usual belay spot to get a better look with the intention of pulling both climbers up, then realized his pulley did not provide enough of a mechanical advantage for that ?


Entirely possible - as RG detailed, and anyone who's built a pulley even just for practice has found out - friction is a major downside to a pulley made of 'biners and cord and running over rock.

My point still remains. The evidence says: a) he had enough rope technique, and b) he was not lost back in the woods incommunicado. So where was his input to and leadership of this situation?

Even as far as having enough rope goes: with the rope skills he apparently has, he should have known that he had enough to lower them; and again, the evidence says the communication was quite possible. Getting them back to the GT was, even with some swinging involved and help from the other party, by far the best and first and easiest option.

He could have, and well should have, lowered them.

I'd have some sympathy for a clueless chump back in the woods stuck next to a locked autoblock; but I'm running out of ways not to blame this guy in a quite serious way. The thing is - we can focus on blaming the clueless leader of Party B for handing her a knife and setting up a high impact fall; but in the end he probably did the best he could in a stressful situation, and that's all you can really ask of anyone. The evidence sofar says that the leader of Party A did far less than the best he could; that indeed, he left them up to the bumblings of Party B, rather than just lowering them!

I'd like to hear more from Eman about what the communication was with this guy, both between him and Eman, and between him and the dangling victims.

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#37479 - 05/31/08 03:44 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Julie]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
CHIRP!
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#37485 - 05/31/08 05:28 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Julie]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
Even a bigger argument for those teeny radios. I've been using a $20/set now for 4 years and they still kinda work. Makes life sooooo much easier in tricky situations......

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#37490 - 05/31/08 07:03 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: fear]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2361
Loc: Boston
Julie, RG, et al.

One possibility is that the purpose of the z pulley was simply to try to unblock his device, which with friction and two people hanging on it, would be extremely difficult. Frankly, with a Reverso lying on the ground under a tree, I'm not sure I'd be *able* to unblock it without several strong people helping. Those Reversos can be a real pain. Have you ever played with trying to unblock a Reverso with the full weight of a climber on it and some friction? In one self-rescue class I took, at the end, the instructors had people practice in real-life situations (backed up by a belay) with the device they typically each use when climbing. Some of those who used Reversos were completely unable to unblock them using anything they could think of, and literally jumping up and down on the sling, until the instructors showed them how to rig up 5:1 pulleys to help. And that was without nearly as much friction as this guy would have had. Several people in the class decided to shelve their Reversos after that day! The ATC guides seem a little easier to unblock.

Anyway, my point is that it may well be that the whole hauling scenario is a red herring and that he really *was* trying to lower the party, but was unable to.

GO

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