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#37400 - 05/29/08 09:00 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Julie - if the leader from team B was hanging out at the move (I think that's where you describe him as being), trying to coach the hanging girl, then surely he had the ability to climb 10 more feet up and over.


Sure, but this is a guy who handed a screaming, hanging girl a knife. I don't have so much confidence in his abilities or judgments.

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#37401 - 05/29/08 09:10 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
Hooker02 Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 5
To much speculation on what took place on the GT ledge. Original assumptions about the improper use of BD guide or reverso were proved wrong by witness. Lets say that with the leader back on the grass (the grassy knoll at this point) belaying (90'-100'rope out) you had enough rope stretch to get an anchor above the screamer (assuming she peter paned at the "move")without going on the head wall. I have to believe the webbing was used just to reel her in and the party on the ledge used another rope to secure her.

Counting 1,2,3 is a tactic for getting someone to do something that makes no sense. Like jumping out of a plane etc.

I could be wrong.

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#37406 - 05/29/08 09:58 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Hooker02]
jdw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 219
Loc: Connecticut
There really is no need complicated solutions like building an anchor above her on the face, setting up 5:1 raising systems, double rappels, etc.

Solution - Get to the top. Smash the leader in the head with a rock (after disparaging him). Take over the belay and lower.

JDW

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#37411 - 05/29/08 11:31 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
learningtolead Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 981
Loc: a wanna be kerhonkson-er
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
I think there's something of a gender disparity that sometimes comes into play, too, whereby beginning women climbers seem to rely on their male partners more than they should. I would not say this is the case with the majority of women, or even necessarily the majority of women who climb with their male partners, but it happens enough to be noticeable as a trend. And, too, men may encourage this by acting the part of the all-knowing, strong, competent, yadda yadda. But then this subject is meaty enough for a whole separate thread.

GO


I think this is an unfair and untrue generalization. To what similar group of newbie men are you comparing this group of women to? I think many, many newish climbers tend to simply rely on their more knowledgable partners. There may be somewhat more women than men that choose not to learn to lead but even that is a generalization that may be more perception than reality.

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#37412 - 05/30/08 12:06 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: learningtolead]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
After the evidence presented in this thread: to wit, beginning girl is dragged onto High E by the incompetent male leader of Team A (not to be confused with the A Team), then "rescued" by the equally incompetent male leadership of Team B, any hint of chauvinism is entirely inappropriate. I'm ashamed of my gender. We do the stupidest shit when women are around.

Perhaps especially when the woman in question is screaming and/or crying, but that's another story. But I see where Gabe is coming from; it's frustrating when a partner (male or female) either starts crying or losing their cool in some other more dangerous, overconfident/reckless way. If people--male or female--could just keep a level head... each gender, perhaps, loses their head in different ways.


Edited by pedestrian (05/30/08 12:07 AM)

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#37417 - 05/30/08 02:36 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: pedestrian]
Terrie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 247
I see a lot of women climbing who seem to let the guys give them play by play directions, but I think often those are girlfriends that are there for those guys, and not women who are climbers and happen to be climbing with their guys.

As well, I just don't see that many guys who drag their non-climbing male friends along and have to do things like....teach them how to belay while they are 30 feet off deck.... It seems they tend to spontaneously decide to take up climbing en mass and NONE of them have a clue! hahahah
_________________________
Links to my blog, and online t-shirt shop

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#37418 - 05/30/08 03:08 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
All you need to know is:

1 - how to set a safe anchor in that face.
2 - How to create an extended rap, with two "arms" (attach yourself to one.)
3 - How to attach an autoblock under your brake strand so you can have both hands free when you get to her.

Then it would have been trivial to rap down to her, attach her to the other arm of the extended rap, and pluck her off. If one couldn't find a way to unweight her rope sufficiently to untie her from it (which really shouldn't be hard, but let's assume it's harder than I think), then that's the time to cut the rope.

GO


There's the rub, precisely. If a climber is hanging free on a rope from above, you can't simple "pluck her off". And I totally reject that cutting the rope is necessary or advisable even in that situation.

This is exactly why self rescue is often not simple. Though certainly one might miss that message, based on all the two page pamphlets, Tech Tips articles, and 60 minute clinics out there that claim to provide you what you need to know. IMO it takes LOTS and LOTS of practice even once you know what the elements are. Some folks can learn the elements from a book, others need to be shown. But it's always eye-opening to set up a "problem" on a climb and see what you - or your partner - can come up with. Example - next time you fall following an upper pitch, just hang on the rope and see if your partner can haul you up 8 feet, or tie you off and rap down to you. DISCLAIMER - this exercise can also get you killed if your partner F's up!

Another fun example - you're TRing something with your belayer at the bottom. Up high on the pitch, lie out flat on a ledge like you've been knocked out by a rock. See what they can do. You're lying on a ledge so lowering your limp carcass isn't feasible. I imagine you could set this up on Friends & Lovers.

PS - no knives!

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#37419 - 05/30/08 03:38 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon

Another fun example - you're TRing something with your belayer at the bottom. Up high on the pitch, lie out flat on a ledge like you've been knocked out by a rock. See what they can do. You're lying on a ledge so lowering your limp carcass isn't feasible. I imagine you could set this up on Friends & Lovers.

PS - no knives!


Where are you going to lie flat on a ledge on Friend and Lovers? The only ledge to lie on is after the anchor and after the climb is over, unless you are talking about the small ledge at mid height which is too small to lie on.

If I was lying on a ledge my parter would probably cut the rope and go for a beer.

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#37421 - 05/30/08 03:49 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Mike Rawdon]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Example - next time you fall following an upper pitch, just hang on the rope and see if your partner can haul you up 8 feet, or tie you off and rap down to you. DISCLAIMER - this exercise can also get you killed if your partner F's up!


If that happened to my partner, I'd be able to do either. But both are more complicated (involving several transitions) than the example we have here, in which you have your own competent (presumably) belayer and lead climber, entirely separate from the disabled climber.

 Quote:
Another fun example - you're TRing something with your belayer at the bottom. Up high on the pitch, lie out flat on a ledge like you've been knocked out by a rock. See what they can do. You're lying on a ledge so lowering your limp carcass isn't feasible. I imagine you could set this up on Friends & Lovers.

PS - no knives!


You're saying the leader is disabled, or the belayer? If the leader is disabled, it's not a fun situation, and there are no super-great solutions. But there are certainly things you can do to lower the risk a little as you ascend the rope to reach them.

Now this is way, way more nasty a situation than the one we're talking about. If anything, you've proved my point, that as rescue situations go, this one should have been a relative no-brainer.

GO

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#37422 - 05/30/08 10:01 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: GOclimb]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb

Now this is way, way more nasty a situation than the one we're talking about. If anything, you've proved my point, that as rescue situations go, this one should have been a relative no-brainer.

GO


Agreed. I was offering up a couple exercises to challenge folks. The High E team isn't ready for such advanced practice yet; they failed Multipitch 101.

Copper - I couldn't remember if that ledge alcove is big enough to lie on. OK, How about Maria Redirect? Big ledge above the hard part. Stage a mock collapse there. Belayer has to go up and help out, then tandem rap. Fairly straightforward as SR scenarios go...right?

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