I had a client a couple years ago who never even made it to the climb. We were half way up the talus slope in Stoney Clove and he got vertigo and couldn't continue up any higher. (He was fine later at Asbestos)

here here for the old man of the mountain! i understand that it is a NIMBY sentiment, but I really wish we could roll back the growth of climbing walls. They have created such a crush and that is just off the college gyms. I can't even imagine when the birthday party crowd gets older. it'll be like surfing in cali with people stacked up in droves on any decent break.

fortunately ice climbing is still considered kinda whacky and you cant do it in a gym. that it's cold and miserable and you always bleed helps keep the numbers down.

i do agree with Rich's point that too many people lack appropriate fear from too easy a learning process. Fear can be good

so much for ice climbing as a refuge of the cranky and solitary

I don't blame him, that talus slope stinks. Especially when it's buried under 1.5 feet of new, unconsolidated snow: just enough so you can't see which rocks are going to shift underneath you, not enough to make the climb easier...

Who the hell in their right mind wants to go up that disaster of a talus slope???

If talus slopes had grades this would be 9+

I don't think they have an inappropriate amount of fear. I think that many of them have what I think is an appropriate amount of fear (if you look at the statistics, the death rates are going down). I'm a sort of old fart that looks forward to them getting strong and into it. A climb that I've been trying recently, (a thin crack climb protected through a very long crux with aid only cams and then opens to an offwidth- and goes in the hard .12/easy .13 range (atleast thatis the range of grades given by the handful that have done it). The kid just totally walked the route. The kid has taken his strength from sports climbing (the local .13d's bore him), developed good trad skills and now just walks the routes I'm working. I'm happy to see that kind of talent.

chas - i think your kid might be a little bit of an exception. Aside from a few genetic freaks, it takes a pretty good amount of work to sport climb 13d and "easy" 13 trad. hats off to those that climb any routes that i can't and won't be able to climb. i certainly have nothing against the talented, but rather the reckless and the careless who don't have respect for the sport, the environment and other people around them. And I hate the crowds, who tend to be more populous on the easier climbs that I am on.

i dont have the data sets to adequately weigh the death or injury rates versus various types of climbers and improvements in gear. fortunately, there seems to be alot of good fortune and resilience that keeps people safe

Chas, I'd be interested in seeing the statistics on death rates in climbing over the years. Could you give me a reference for your statement?

Meanwhile, my remarks about the fear desensitization process comes from observations at the gym combined with what seems to be a steady parade of fiascos on the rock.

Consider the latest High E extravaganza, for example. What could the leader have been thinking? How did the second and third manage to agree to this arrangement? A little appropriate fear ahead of time would have avoided a major panic attack and rope mutilation incident later on.

Years ago people used to be afraid of High E. It was exposed and pumpy, even if the holds are big. Now a guy who can't do it without hanging on every piece takes two people up it, presumably less capable then him and without any of the basic skills needed to help themselves, ties them 15 feet apart, and then belays in the woods out of effective communication range. To my mind, only a touching faith that climbing is way safer than it really is would allow three people to acquiesce to a process so loaded with pitfalls. One can't help but wonder whether all judgement is suspended once the harness buckle is doubled back and and a proper figure-eight has been tied.

But this is just one example, I've seen plenty more and I'm sure everyone could chime in with their favorite.

With all due respect and admiration for the 5.13 kid, the example is irrelevant. I have no doubt that the path from gym to sport to trad will determine the future of the sport and will result in incredible achievements. But that doesn't diminish the observation that trying to make climbing apparently risk-free and attractive to all will end up drawing people into the more dangerous realm of trad climbing with an inadequate appreciation of the risks they are actually taking.

Fear desensitization doesn't explain it for me. Seems like plenty of gym climbers are plenty afraid when they get out on real rock, myself included.

Then fear desensitization just didn't work on you, that's all.

More seriously, it is a bit of a stretch, although I think not entirely without merit. But sometimes, as the discussion goes along, one can get caught up in points that aren't terribly sustainable, and this may be one of those times. I don't really want to make a Custer's Last Stand on the Fear Desensitization Issue.