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#37632 - 06/06/08 03:42 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: pedestrian]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
if the middle has already passed belayer, on the other hand, then simulclimbing or some other Plan B will be required. If the two seconds are not capable of simulclimbing, the leader should lead short pitches and establish extra belays, or the party should carry two ropes.

Not to particularly pick on pedestrian, but I disagree with this, too. A party of three carries two ropes. Period. No simul-climging, no cows-tail tie-ins, no middle tie ins. It's a 250' route, with a level, 10 minute approach. Saving all 8 lbs of the extra weight of a second rope is less than stellar thinking.
_________________________
- Marc

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#37646 - 06/06/08 05:21 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: MarcC]
dalguard Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1515
Loc: CT
So what happened to the guy in the middle?

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#37652 - 06/06/08 06:10 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: dalguard]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Cut out the middle man!

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#37655 - 06/06/08 06:40 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: chip]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
 Originally Posted By: chip
Cut out the middle man!


Priceless. Well done.

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#37656 - 06/06/08 06:41 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: MarcC]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
if the middle has already passed belayer, on the other hand, then simulclimbing or some other Plan B will be required. If the two seconds are not capable of simulclimbing, the leader should lead short pitches and establish extra belays, or the party should carry two ropes.

Not to particularly pick on pedestrian, but I disagree with this, too. A party of three carries two ropes. Period. No simul-climging, no cows-tail tie-ins, no middle tie ins. It's a 250' route, with a level, 10 minute approach. Saving all 8 lbs of the extra weight of a second rope is less than stellar thinking.


On High E, sure. You shouldn't be simulclimbing or cowtailing the first 60m pitch. For shorter routes than High E however there is no reason.

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#37662 - 06/06/08 08:32 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: pedestrian]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Hasn't anyone here ever fallen with ice tools and crampons on their person? How about screws. You'd be falling with about 26 knives. This is not as big a deal as you all make it out to be. Get a life and go do something with it.

RR

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#37665 - 06/06/08 08:50 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: dalguard]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
 Originally Posted By: dalguard
So what happened to the guy in the middle?


Uh, he's waitng for someone to cut him loose too?
(That guy up top just won't lower him!)

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#37669 - 06/06/08 10:24 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: pedestrian]
MarcC Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 3532
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
On High E, sure. You shouldn't be simulclimbing or cowtailing the first 60m pitch.


How about three people, one rope, no cows-tail tie-ins, no middle tie-in, no simulclimbing? Instead leader gets to belay ledge, anchors and ties in. Leader brings up second, who ties in to anchor with slings. Second then unties his end of the rope, coils it, and tosses it down to the third. Third ties in and leader brings him up to belay ledge. The leader had set the belay in the corner, so his second pitch was to traverse out right and up to the big triangular ledge on the GT.Remember, we're still talking about High E here. Before he gets too far, I call over (we were on The Last Will Be First) and ask him how he plans to get the rope back to the third person in the corner. I get a blank look. I then ask him how he plans to get the rope down to the third person on the last pitch, under the overhang and well in from the overhanging headwall, assuming the third survives their second pitch. I get an even blanker look, which I didn't think possible.

Some brain cells finally awoke from their stupor and they reconsidered, eventually opting to lower the third back to the ground. This was some time in the mid 80's. Stupidity on High E is, alas, hardly a recent occurrence.
_________________________
- Marc

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#37672 - 06/08/08 03:36 AM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: EMan]
Tim Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 3
EMan,

Why is the leader of party B an idiot? He setup an anchor for the girl to belay down to the ledge using the end of our rope, What would you do leave her hanging? or finish the climb around her?

Tim


Edited by Tim (06/08/08 03:39 AM)

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#37674 - 06/08/08 03:27 PM Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope [Re: Tim]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Sounds as if it might have been difficult to convince leader A to lower, but after all the discussion about hauling and with 20-20 hind sight and assuming the first second was off the wall too; then perhaps the easiest solution without cutting the rope might have been to climb through quickly with goal being to help as quickly as possible. Just clip the pro already on route etc. Get to the top, and lower both seconds all the way to the ground using both ropes. Knot passing should be especially easy with two leaders working. Even passing a knot could be avoided by allowing a belay device and biner to be lowered too.

That said, I am not as completely against cutting the rope as others have been even though I admit all their concerns are valid. It was a viable option, and it sounds as if you handled it better than some feared. Note that whatever rope the girl cut, she would still be hanging by the other. and it would have been unlikely to cut both at once. I do admit that I don’t like the idea of her dropping the knife. Things we don’t know: was the knife slung to something? How large and sharp was it…?

Personally and I emphasize that with 20-20 hindsight I could have performed my above solution in about the same time as building and anchor and cutting the rope. Yes I’ve read Kent’s posts and agree that climbers ought to make the effort of learning how to gain mechanical advantage and when it will be necessary and/or useful. In this case lowering would have been quicker and have a much higher chance of success, and be mostly free of the dangers presented by high mechanical advantage systems. I know I learned something so this discussion was useful to me.


Edited by Mark Heyman (06/08/08 03:52 PM)

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